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Re: We Have All Been Saved #73729
05/10/06 01:08 AM
05/10/06 01:08 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
How are they punished?

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Re: We Have All Been Saved #73730
05/10/06 01:38 AM
05/10/06 01:38 AM
Surrender  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 16
GA
Quote:

Tom, if we will have hair in the new earth we will have death because hair is comprised of dead cells.

BTW, the Bible also says that the earth is fixed.




Darius,
I'm wondering what makes this statement true (i.e.if we will have hair in the new earth we will have death because hair is comprised of dead cells)? Perhaps you simply can't fathom what God has in store for us with our changed, incorruptible bodies - hair and all - in the new earth. Does the Bible support this hypothesis of yours? Please share. Thanks.


. . . Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: . . . I come to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:5-9
Re: We Have All Been Saved #73731
05/10/06 02:22 AM
05/10/06 02:22 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, this is just a vision, like Revelation. It's not an interpretation. Consider the following vision:

Quote:

Another mysterious sight appeared in the sky. There was a huge red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and a crown on each of his heads. (Rev. 12:3)




Do you think this is literal? Is there really a red dragon in heaven with seven heads and ten horns?

Here's something Ellen White wrote about the vision she saw many years later:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)




*This* is an interpretation. Don't you think it makes a lot more sense to use this explanation as the primary source of what's happening rather than the vision which this is explaining? Doesn't the explanation of what the red dragon with the heads and horns make more sense to take hold of in understanding this vision than taking the view that there's literally a multi-headed red dragon in heaven?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: We Have All Been Saved #73732
05/10/06 10:38 AM
05/10/06 10:38 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

Let's say you are crossing the street, not paying attention to where you are going. A man pushes you out of the way from an oncoming truck, which would have killed you had he not done so. Thirty years later, once again, you are crossing the street not paying attention, and get killed by an oncoming truck. Does this make it untrue that the old man saved you from death, giving you an extra thirty years of life?



This illustration does not represent what happened to man; the other does. Man was given a second opportunity, not saved from death. The prisoner will only be saved from death if, during the time of postponment of his execution, he obtains pardon from the governor.

Re: We Have All Been Saved #73733
05/10/06 10:52 AM
05/10/06 10:52 AM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Quote:

Quote:

Tom, if we will have hair in the new earth we will have death because hair is comprised of dead cells.

BTW, the Bible also says that the earth is fixed.




Darius,
I'm wondering what makes this statement true (i.e.if we will have hair in the new earth we will have death because hair is comprised of dead cells)? Perhaps you simply can't fathom what God has in store for us with our changed, incorruptible bodies - hair and all - in the new earth. Does the Bible support this hypothesis of yours? Please share. Thanks.


The onus is on you to show how it is that hair became dead cells if it did not consist of dead cells before the original pair were deceived. Provide the evidence to support your position. My position is that hair is today what it has always been since the creation.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: We Have All Been Saved #73734
05/10/06 12:57 PM
05/10/06 12:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I disagree. DA 764 is not an interpretation of EW 294. Instead, it is new information. As with any other inspired author Jesus provided Sister White with new details to help flesh out her earlier visions. New light never contradicts old light.

Listen to how she wrote about it in the following passage (she speaks plainly about Jesus' use of fire to punish and destroy the wicked):

GC 672-674
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Re: We Have All Been Saved #73735
05/10/06 01:18 PM
05/10/06 01:18 PM
Darius  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Quote:

New light never contradicts old light.



It's amazing how much power this simple statement has. Once a particular source is identified as "new light" the old light is rendered obsolete because the assumption has already been made that the "new light" must be in agreement. It is no wonder that some people who have never read most of the Bible are fully read in the "new light," and that is all they can quote.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: We Have All Been Saved #73736
05/10/06 06:32 PM
05/10/06 06:32 PM
Surrender  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 16
GA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Tom, if we will have hair in the new earth we will have death because hair is comprised of dead cells.

BTW, the Bible also says that the earth is fixed.




Darius,
I'm wondering what makes this statement true (i.e.if we will have hair in the new earth we will have death because hair is comprised of dead cells)? Perhaps you simply can't fathom what God has in store for us with our changed, incorruptible bodies - hair and all - in the new earth. Does the Bible support this hypothesis of yours? Please share. Thanks.


The onus is on you to show how it is that hair became dead cells if it did not consist of dead cells before the original pair were deceived. Provide the evidence to support your position. My position is that hair is today what it has always been since the creation.




No, Darius, the onus is on you to support if we have hair in the new earth we will have deathbecause hai is comprised of dead cells!! I'm simply asking how do you know what an incorruptible body even with hair will be comprised of in the new earth? Even if hair was dead cells (man's science, no doubt) before the pair was deceived, it was "good", in fact it was "very good" because God inspired that it be written that everything He made was good and He did make everything and made no mistakes. That's my position.


. . . Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: . . . I come to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:5-9
Re: We Have All Been Saved #73737
05/10/06 07:35 PM
05/10/06 07:35 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Let's say you are crossing the street, not paying attention to where you are going. A man pushes you out of the way from an oncoming truck, which would have killed you had he not done so. Thirty years later, once again, you are crossing the street not paying attention, and get killed by an oncoming truck. Does this make it untrue that the old man saved you from death, giving you an extra thirty years of life?


This illustration does not represent what happened to man; the other does. Man was given a second opportunity, not saved from death. The prisoner will only be saved from death if, during the time of postponment of his execution, he obtains pardon from the governor.

As by one man came death and condemnation upon all men, even so came justification of life upon all men. (Rom. 5:18)

As the Spirit of Prophecy puts it, Christ signed the emancipations of the race with His blood. (MH 89) The whole race was emancipated! Hurray! The whole race was restored to favor with God (1SM 343). The reason the race did not immediately perish is because the Plan of Salvation was put into effect, placing the whole race into the hands of Christ (FW 21, 22). Christ is called the Savior of the World (John 4:42; 1John 4:14). Christ redeemed Adam's disgraceful fall and saved the world (God's Amazing Grace 42).

The truck illustration is much more accurate. Christ actually *did* something which actually *benefits* us which actually *cost* Him (and God) something. We have reason to be thankful to Him, infinitely so, not just because of something that *might* happen, but on the basis of something which *has* happened.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: We Have All Been Saved #73738
05/10/06 07:37 PM
05/10/06 07:37 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Take a look at the following verse in reference to death:

Quote:


Rev. 21:4
and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.




The above Bible quote clearly states that death shall be no more.

After the lost are consumed in the Lake of Fire, there will obviously be no more death, therefore, a person's hair will also be changed from dead cells to living cells at both the translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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