Regarding cells dying in the New Earth have you considered the food that we will be eating there? Do the food cells die in our stomachs? Or, will they continue to live inside of us? As we chomp up food and swallow it does it live or die? Will we eliminate waste in the New Earth like we do now? If so, is it dead or alive? Is it right to assume food cells are dead if we eat them?

Tom, Jesus did not save everyone on the cross in the sense that He granted everyone eternal life in the New Earth. Granting the human race probationary time to accept or reject Him is not the same as saving everyone. Jesus saved no one on the cross. Jesus saved no one while He was resting in the grave. In fact, if He hadn’t raised Himself from the grave every one of us would have been lost in our sins.

Romans
4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Jesus earned the right to offer us eternal life in the New Earth when He died, rose, and returned to the throne of God. But He did not earn the right to save us against our will and choice. He made salvation from sin and the second death available to everyone who will comply with the conditions of salvation, namely, 1) die to self, 2) awake to rigtheousness, and 3) walk in the Spirit while abiding in Jesus.

Tom, Jesus did not save everyone on the cross in the sense that He granted everyone eternal life in the New Earth.

Eternal life is not something granted in the New Earth, but it is given to us here and now. "He that has the Son has life." "He that believes in me shall never die." "I write this things that you may know that you have eternal life." Corporate salvation is not dealing with this, however.

Granting the human race probationary time to accept or reject Him is not the same as saving everyone.
It is in the corporate sense. Notice that Christ is called "The Savior of the world" by John. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that Christ saved the world.

Jesus saved no one on the cross.

It would be helpful if you defined how you are using the word "saved."

Jesus saved no one while He was resting in the grave. In fact, if He hadn’t raised Himself from the grave every one of us would have been lost in our sins.

Romans
4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Corinthians
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Jesus earned the right to offer us eternal life in the New Earth when He died, rose, and returned to the throne of God.

Jesus not only offered eternal life before He returned to the throne of God, He gave it. All who believed in Christ before He returned to the throne of God already had it. A number of humans were already in heaven ready to meet Jesus when He returned. There was never an issue of Jesus having to earn a right to give away something we have always had access to. As Jesus said in John 17:4, eternal life is knowing God. This has always been everyone's privilege.

But He did not earn the right to save us against our will and choice.

This is not something which it would be possible to earn the right to do. The whole concept doesn't make sense.

He made salvation from sin and the second death available to everyone who will comply with the conditions of salvation, namely, 1) die to self, 2) awake to rigtheousness, and 3) walk in the Spirit while abiding in Jesus.

To know God is eternal life. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He gives us eternal life by giving us Himself. The only way anyone can be lost is to resist the light shining from the cross which leads us to repentance.

Tom, where did Sister White say that her DA 764 statement is an explanation of her EW 294, 295 and GC 672-674 statements regarding the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire? Since she does not say this anywhere in her writings I am led to believe that the different insights agree and harmonize, that is, the DA quote does not require us to interpret the EW and GC quotes symbolically.

Of course the ideas harmonize. DA 764 explains exactly what is happening. It is in your view that there is conflict. According to her, the light of the glory of God which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. According to you, God heaves molten lava upon them, causing them excruciating pain up to many hours while supernaturally keeping them alive until His thirst for vengeance is satisfies, and then He kills them.

All of the above is true. Both dynamics are at work in the lake of fire. God’s consuming presence alongside hellfire and brimstone work together to punish and destroy the wicked in the lake of fire. I see no other option.

The other option is simply believe the description in DA 764.

Without Sister White’s inspired consent we do not have the authority to symbolically interpret her clear and consistent descriptions of the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire.

There's not issue of authority. God gave us "permission" to interpret inspired writers when He gave us brains. All of do the same thing. We reason through inspired writings and put things together in a way that makes sense to us. There is no other way of doing this. We are all dependent upon the paradigm we currently have in order to make things fit. Your paradigm features a God who thirsts for vengeance, who is the author of death, who made sin inevitable, and so you interpret things to fit into your paradigm. My paradigm is that all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while He lived amongst us, so I interpret things to fit that paradigm. "Chacun à son goût."

As to whether or not Jesus must use divine power to punish the wicked in the lake of fire consider the following insight from GC 673: “The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.” Jesus makes or causes Satan to suffer for the sins of the saved, He makes him to suffer in the flames longer than other wicked sinners.

She also states that Satan will suffer for the sins he has caused upon the wicked. This isn't something arbitrary. It's inevitable that Satan should suffer for the things he has caused, just like everyone else will. Guilt causes suffering.

TE - Your paradigm features a God who thirsts for vengeance, who is the author of death, who made sin inevitable, and so you interpret things to fit into your paradigm.

MM - Tom, once again we must agree to disagree. Your characterization of the view I have embraced of punsihment and destruction in the lake of fire is different than the one subscibe to. Please quote me instead of yourself when representing the view I believe in. Thank you.

Here is my statement of your position, and your response:

TE - When the wicked are resurrected, God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will be rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones.


MM - Correct. The lake of fire, though, is caused by Jesus raining down fire upon the unsaved sinners. They suffer in proportion to the sins they committed. They worse the sins the more severe the suffering. Some are suffer fewer stripes, others more - depending on their sinfulness. I cannot understand how we will rejoice with the angels, but the Bible and the SOP make it clear we will.

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You seem to be indicating that you now disagree with my restatement of your position. In what way has your view changed?

If you tell me your view has changed, I will gladly quote that instead. If you will write your own summary of your position, which includes the elements I listed, I would be happy to quote that too.

Tom, you have extracted one part of a very long discussion regarding this matter. If you insist on sharing the view I have adopted, please consider the following explanation:

The lake of fire is caused by Jesus raining down fire upon unsaved sinners. The wicked suffer physically and emotionally in proportion to the sins they have committed. Some suffer fewer “stripes”, while others suffer more. Satan suffers the most. Just exactly how Jesus causes the wicked to suffer according to their sinfulness is not clear to me at this time. Nor can I understand how or why we will rejoice with Jesus and the holy angels over the punishment and destruction of sin and sinners in the lake of fire, especially as it relates to our loved ones, but the Bible and the SOP make it clear that we will.

As to the rejoicing over the death of the wicked, I think Denborg's explanation was clear and easy to understand. There's really no mystery about it. The rejoicing is over the end of sin and the establishment of righteousness, the vindication of God's character, not over the suffering or death of God's wayward children.

It seems you are changing your mind over a crucial aspect of my statement of your position, which is this part:

Quote:

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God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed.

---

In the original response, you agreed with this, with the only comment on this being that you stated that the molten lava or whatever it is was something which God rained down upon them from heaven.

Whether the molten lava comes down from above or they get tossed into is of but small import. The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins. Before you agreed with this, but in this most recent post of yours you seem to be saying that you have changed your mind and are no longer sure of this. Am I correct about this? Or do you think the same way you were before, and the only thing you are clarifying is that you are not sure how God supernaturally keeps them physically alive so they can be boiled or scalded?

Quote:
The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins.
Unquote.

But that is what I heard among SDA’s, what I read in the SOP and what I believe.

Why? Are you not agreeing with this? Why are you not agreeing? Does it give an implication that God is not soo loving and kind as you think?

In His love

JamesS

It sounds rather barbaric, James, don't you think? For God to keep people alive supernaturally so they can be boiled alive?