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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73759
05/25/06 04:06 PM
05/25/06 04:06 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Holding on to barbaric images of the Creator of the Universe is clear evidence of not knowing Him/Her.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73760
05/25/06 11:34 PM
05/25/06 11:34 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Tom: The important part that I'm interested in is if you believe that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can be boiled alive for a long enough time to pay in physical suffering for their sins.
Quote:
James: But that is what I heard among SDA’s, what I read in the SOP and what I believe.
Why? Are you not agreeing with this? Why are you not agreeing? Does it give an implication that God is not soo loving and kind as you think?
People tend to read according to the vengeance that is in them. This our heavenly Father desires to exchange for his grace. Let us read according to the grace of his holy spirit, and the fruit thereof.
It should be very self-evident that any lessons or retributions or whatever you will that the lost are supposed to get out of being boiled alive would be entirely lost and useless, since their only end is death. So if God should do such a thing as is proposed here it would only be for the purpose of satisfying revengeful lust of those who will remain alive. This is not the kind of kingdom of heaven Christ revealed.
The controversy between good and evil, between life and death, still needs to come home to many hearts.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73761
05/26/06 02:24 AM
05/26/06 02:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, the idea that people have as to why the wicked must be punished is not for the purpose of satisfying their own revengeful lust, but to satisfy God's justice, or, to use the words of some, God's "thirst for violence." This is equivalent to what you're saying though, since people see God according to their own character.
"With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward." (Ps. 18:25, 26)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73762
05/26/06 01:38 PM
05/26/06 01:38 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
So if God should do such a thing as is proposed here it would only be for the purpose of satisfying revengeful lust of those who will remain alive.
God is one of those remaining alive and would have to 'live with' what was done to the lost ones. So while this sinful world is thinking itself justified by God in its thirst for violence; there is the kingdom of heaven that Christ brought which belies it.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73763
05/26/06 04:33 PM
05/26/06 04:33 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I do not doubt that Jesus will use literal fire to punish the wicked according to their sinfulness. The Bible and SOP is clear. What I'm not clear about is how Jesus keeps them alive during the time they are suffering according to their sinfulnss. Why they do not die immediately is not clear to me. Whether your view or the one I have adopted is right doesn't change what I'm not clear about. I also believe God's glory contributes to the suffering they experience until they die.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73764
05/26/06 04:39 PM
05/26/06 04:39 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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PS - I don't have as much time to post during the summer months as I do during the rest of the year.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73765
05/26/06 07:51 PM
05/26/06 07:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok, so back to my original statement: Quote:
When the wicked are resurrected, God will cause fire to rain upon them, causing them to be cast into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, in which He will keep them supernaturally alive (although how God does this is unclear) to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones. How or why this rejoicing occurs is unclear.
I altered it slightly, so it now says, "God will cause fire to rain upon them, causing them to be cast into a lake of fire" rather than "God will cast them into a lake of fire." I also added the parenthetical phrases to make clear you do not understand how God supernaturally keeps the wicked alive so they can be boiled, nor why or how God and others rejoice in their suffering.
I think I've represented your thought perfectly now, as the three clarifications you made about my statement of your position were:
a)The lake of fire is caused by God raining fire down upon the wicked.
b)How God keeps them supernatually alive is not clear to you.
c)How or why there is rejoicing in their suffering is not clear to you.
Do I have it exactly right?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73766
05/26/06 07:58 PM
05/26/06 07:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
So if God should do such a thing as is proposed here it would only be for the purpose of satisfying revengeful lust of those who will remain alive. This is not the kind of kingdom of heaven Christ revealed.
You're right. For some reason I was excluding God from those who remain alive. I guess that "remain" caused me to disregard God in my thinking.
You're right in asserting that this is not the kind of kingdom which Christ revealed.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73767
05/27/06 03:41 AM
05/27/06 03:41 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Tom:
It sounds rather barbaric, James, don't you think? For God to keep people alive supernaturally so they can be boiled alive?
Darius:
Holding on to barbaric images of the Creator of the Universe is clear evidence of not knowing Him/Her
Unquote
Quoted from Daryl, posted Sat May 20 2006 11:06 PM in Destruction of the wicked topic:
The following EGW quote shows they were not already dead until they are completely consumed in the lake of fire:
Quote:
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Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
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Unquote.
As I said I have read it somewhere in the SOP and I heard among SDA's, now I see that EGW who has the barbaric thought and taught other people the same.
That is why I never use EGW quotes in my 600+ posts here for I think I have read a lot of contradiction in here writings.
In His love
James S
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73768
05/27/06 04:09 AM
05/27/06 04:09 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Don't be too quick to judge, James! In Ellen White's most detailed description of the destruction of the wicked she writes: Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Earlier in the Desire of Ages she writes:
Quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. (DA 108)
She makes very clear that what destroys the wicked is not literal fire, but the light of glory of God, and that this same light gives life to the rightoues. Literal fire couldn't do this, could it?
I disagree that her writings are contradictory, but believe, just as with Scripture, you need to compare different texts to get the complete picture.
But this doesn't explain a very confusing thing. Why would post something from someone you believe is contradictory to substantiate a barbaric belief? What sense does that make?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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