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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73739
05/10/06 09:28 PM
05/10/06 09:28 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Daryl
ehm, if human hair was made up of living cells, you would be unable to cut it on danger of bleeding to death. I think it would be fair to assume that in translation or resurrection humans will again be as Adam was created, and we are not told of major remake of his physical body as a result of sin. So either God created life making it replenish itself replacing old cells with new cells, or life on earth has experienced some major evolution/devolution since creation.
I also think its a major stretch to take the verse from Rev 21:4 to mean that human hair cells will one day be redesigned. We cry and mourn when a person dies, but noone ever cried or mourned over a hair that was lost and fell by itself.
Surrender
If no death means no dead individual cells, then Platon and the gnostics where right declaring the human body a prison of the soul that should be done away with to reach perfecton. It is not only human hair that starts as living cells, but more than half of the dust you vaccume each week is skin cells dropped from those who live in your house, every blood cell is exchanged every (I think it is)72 hours, bone cells like hair cells are born only to fill up with fibres/calcium and die for the strengthening of the body. In fact all cells with the possible exception of nerve cells are exchanged more or less often during a normal life span. If the ressurection body works differently from this in any major way, it would appear that the body given to Adam cannot have been that good after all if the entire design has to be discarded.
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73740
05/10/06 09:45 PM
05/10/06 09:45 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Quote:
Take a look at the following verse in reference to death:
Quote:
Rev. 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
The above Bible quote clearly states that death shall be no more.
After the lost are consumed in the Lake of Fire, there will obviously be no more death, therefore, a person's hair will also be changed from dead cells to living cells at both the translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead.
All I can advise is that we are required to think through the implications of what we say instead of just saying that which will strengthen what we already believe. As Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." If we have been poorly taught by our theologians we are under no obligation to perpetuate falsehoods.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73741
05/10/06 09:57 PM
05/10/06 09:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Tom, I disagree. DA 764 is not an interpretation of EW 294. Instead, it is new information. As with any other inspired author Jesus provided Sister White with new details to help flesh out her earlier visions. New light never contradicts old light.
I'm not getting this. Both the vision and the explanation are dealing with the same thing: the destruction of the wicked. It's only new information in that she hadn't written it before she wrote it. It's not talking about a different event. It's explaining the event. There's no contradiction between DA 764 and the EW vision because the DA 764 statement is explaining the same thing the EW vision is about.
Here's an analogy. In Revelation it talks about there being a red dragon in heaven with heads and horns. EGW explains what this vision means. In her explanation she doesn't speak of a literal red dragon with literal heads and horns. She is not undoing or contradicting John's vision in any way. She's explaining it.
For you to insist that the vision is literal, not only would make new light contradict old light, as you put it, it would paint God's character in an unflattering way. It leads to the idea that God causes people excruciating pain by casting them in molten lava, or something like that (or heaves the molten lava on them) and then supernaturally keeps the people alive for somewhere from a few moments to many hours so they can suffer whatever God deems is sufficient. What a barbarous picture! Where is anything remotely like this to be seen in life or character of Jesus Christ, whose very purpose was to reveal God's character to us, while here in the flesh?
Ellen White, on the other hand, wrote that it is the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, which destroys the wicked (DA 108). How, in your paradigm, can the same thing which gives life to the righteous destroy the wicked?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73742
05/10/06 11:55 PM
05/10/06 11:55 PM
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Darius,
What's so hard about understanding the words from the Bible that states, and I quote, "death shall be no more"?
That's what the Bible says, and I believe what the Bible says.
What's there to interpret about that, complex-wise, or other-wise?
Darius, I don't know what your theology is, however, I fear it is a lot more complex than the straight and clear words of the "death shall be no more" statement of John the revelator.
As I said before, and I say it respectfully, but bluntly, I will go with the clear words of both the Bible and EGW over the confusing and complex words I am hearing from you in just about every topic.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73743
05/11/06 12:02 AM
05/11/06 12:02 AM
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As far as this topic goes, which I want us to get back into and stick to, the following are other clear words from the Bible that tells me, without any need of complex interpretation, that we have not all been saved: Quote:
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Those who have been devoured have not been saved.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73744
05/11/06 01:45 AM
05/11/06 01:45 AM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 16
GA
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Quote:
Surrender
If no death means no dead individual cells, then Platon and the gnostics where right declaring the human body a prison of the soul that should be done away with to reach perfecton. . . . If the ressurection body works differently from this in any major way, it would appear that the body given to Adam cannot have been that good after all if the entire design has to be discarded.
/Thomas
We are to reach perfection in this life in character - love God; love each other. Perfection of body isn't a part of that as God has some (I believe) in unperfect bodies allowing Christ to work in them to will and to do His good pleasure. My point is a statement sounding "very sure" was made about a resurrected body in the new earth that we know nothing about. Eye has not seen nor ear heard . . . just speculation. Rather than answering my question, Darius says As Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." A statement based on a "feeling" apparently given to him by a god rather than supported by God's inspired word.
. . . Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: . . . I come to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:5-9
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73745
05/11/06 01:58 AM
05/11/06 01:58 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Those who have been devoured have not been saved.
They had been saved, but they used their salvation to live for self, which can only lead to death. Of course, the first "saved" here is speaking corporately. Individually they chose to use their salvation poorly, choosing to be die.
Here's an analogy. The slaves were freed in the emancipation proclamation. If they chose to, they could continue with their master, as if they had never been freed. This is, unfortunately, what many choose to do.
I'm only bringing this up because it is important that we remember that Christ actually accomplished something for every person, at great cost to Himself, and tremendous self-sacrificing love. He must be glorified for this. The same applies to the Father as well.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73746
05/11/06 10:34 AM
05/11/06 10:34 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Quote:
Darius,
What's so hard about understanding the words from the Bible that states, and I quote, "death shall be no more"?
That's what the Bible says, and I believe what the Bible says.
What's there to interpret about that, complex-wise, or other-wise?
Darius, I don't know what your theology is, however, I fear it is a lot more complex than the straight and clear words of the "death shall be no more" statement of John the revelator.
When someone tells you "Look out!" how do you know whether you should poke your head out the window or pull back into the building? Do you think the Bible is straight and clear when it says "the earth is fixed?" The fact is that you do not follow the Bible the way you wish us to think you do. You use the Bible to support your beliefs. One day you will see the danger in that. Ask yourself what kind of death John was speaking of in that passage you keep quoting.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73747
05/11/06 01:18 PM
05/11/06 01:18 PM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 16
GA
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Quote:
Here's an analogy.
Here's another analogy I thought was great that was shared with me from the book "A Heart Ablaze" by John Bevere:
"Let's say I lived near a volcanic mountain. An announcement is made that it will erupt in the next twenty-four hours. Without means of transportation I could in no way escape because I could not get far enough away from the mountain on foot in that twenty-four hour period. Without an automobile I am doomed. In seeing my need a generous and loving person knocks on my door, gives me a car, puts the keys in my hand, and says, "The car is yours, You are now saved."
I rejoice that I have been saved. Being almost penniless, I could have never bought the automobile. This person has freely given me the automobile that is going to carry me to safety. I call my friends and excitedly tell them, "I have been saved! A very compassionate person has given me an automobile to get out of this disaster. Isn't it wonderful?" I then dig out my maps, and I even buy a book telling me how to drive more proficiently.
However, for the next twenty-four hours I remain in the house. I fail to get into the car to drive to freedom. The volcano erupts, and I am swept away to destruction. The gift that would lead to my freedom was provided, but I just celebrated it and took no action. Afterward, all who knew my position and what I had received would say, "He received the automobile in vain."
In the same way, to receive God's grace in vain would mean that He has given us the power to walk free from the snares of this worls through holiness, but we neglect it." (pp. 97,9)
. . . Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: . . . I come to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:5-9
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73748
05/11/06 02:00 PM
05/11/06 02:00 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, where did Sister White say that her DA 764 statement is an explanation of her EW 294, 295 and GC 672-674 statements regarding the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire? Since she does not say this anywhere in her writings I am led to believe that the different insights agree and harmonize, that is, the DA quote does not require us to interpret the EW and GC quotes symbolically.
All of the above is true. Both dynamics are at work in the lake of fire. God’s consuming presence alongside hellfire and brimstone work together to punish and destroy the wicked in the lake of fire. I see no other option. Without Sister White’s inspired consent we do not have the authority to symbolically interpret her clear and consistent descriptions of the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire.
As to whether or not Jesus must use divine power to punish the wicked in the lake of fire consider the following insight from GC 673: “The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.” Jesus makes or causes Satan to suffer for the sins of the saved, He makes him to suffer in the flames longer than other wicked sinners.
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