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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73799
06/02/06 12:21 AM
06/02/06 12:21 AM
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And how about this one: Quote:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Is everybody saved in the above quote? The logical answer is no. Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe shall not be saved.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73800
06/02/06 12:34 AM
06/02/06 12:34 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If we are going to consider *all* quotes, then shouldn't we consider these? Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)
There are many, many more like these. I've just presented these because I think these are particularly clear.
I do not see any contradiction between the Bible outline and these quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy. I have explained in a detailed fashion how I think things will happen, in the Sin Problem thread, in a way which I think *is* in harmony with all the evidence we have.
It has been suggested that we should take into account all the texts on the destruction of the wicked. I agree with this, and have done so. Rosangela also did, when she was taking part in a similar discussion. John B. has done so, although he has stuck mostly to Scripture. Arthur has just started, and looks to me like he will be doing this. I don't think anyone else has offered any explanation of DA 764 or DA 108. If we are going to consider all the texts, then these need to be considered, right?
In particular, how is it that the same thing which slays the wicked gives life to the righteous? Isn't this a significant fact? I think it is.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73801
06/02/06 12:38 AM
06/02/06 12:38 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl, regarding who will be saved, it depends on what "saved" means. If you mean in terms of who will go to heaven, then you are correct and have chosen a good verse to support your assertion.
However, there is also a sense in which all have been saved, which is evidenced by the fact that Christ is several times referred to as "the Savior of the world" in Scripture, and that the Spirit of Prophecy states a number of times that Christ "saved the world."
I think, when discussing this topic, it would be helpful to make clear what exactly it is that we mean when we say "saved."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73802
06/02/06 12:41 AM
06/02/06 12:41 AM
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Tom, Didn't you absorb what I posted regarding God not being arbitrary but just?  I suggest you read it again as your latest post seems like you didn't.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73803
06/02/06 01:15 AM
06/02/06 01:15 AM
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Quote:
And how about this one:
Quote:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Is everybody saved in the above quote? The logical answer is no. Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who don't believe shall not be saved.
If they are not saved why does it say "shall be damned?" We must not be so eager to prove ourselves right that we do injustice to the text. Consider the context as well as the text.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73804
06/02/06 04:12 AM
06/02/06 04:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl, I'm not understanding how, in your view, the following is true: Quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)
Would you please explain this to me? The point that I'm particularly interested in is that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked. How do you see this happening?
You wrote that God is not arbitrary but just, which of course everybody agrees with. I don't see how that explains this quote. Were you intending it to? What exactly is it that I'm not absorbing?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73805
06/02/06 04:57 PM
06/02/06 04:57 PM
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Tom, Here is the whole paragtraph of the one sentence you quoted: Quote:
Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
And, Tom, I'm not understanding how, in your view, the following is true:
Quote:
Chap. 288 - God Intervenes in Armageddon
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord. Jer. 25:31.
For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now all have made their decisions; the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. "The Lord hath a controversy with the nations"; "He will give them that are wicked to the sword." {Mar 296.1}
The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {Mar 296.2}
"The Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. . . .In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {Mar 296.3}
Such words as "The Lord cometh out of his place to punish..." and "....by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath...." shows two things:
1 - God's punishment and wrath.
2 - Not everyone has been saved from God's punishment and wrath.
If everybody had been saved from God's punishment and wrath, then there wouldn't be anybody for God to punish.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73806
06/02/06 06:33 PM
06/02/06 06:33 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl, I don't think you have answered my question, which is how is it that the same thing which gives life to the righteous slays the wicked? I'm going to include the paragraph before the one you included, so we can get a fuller context to the sentence I quoted: Quote:
"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matt. 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.
Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 108)
I'm guessing (I have to guess because you included no comment with the paragraph you quoted.) that you quoted the paragraph you did because you think I'm taking the sentence I did out of context (?). That is, you think it doesn't apply to the destruction of the wicked? Is my guess correct?
On the assumption that it is, I will provide evidence that this sentence is not being taken out of context. First all not the following:
Quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.
This is clearly dealing with the destruction of the wicked, correct? So she is dealing with the destruction of the wicked in what she's saying. She's discussing an overriding principle.
Please also note the following:
Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
There's no doubt this is addressing the destruction of the wicked, as that's all she's talking about here, so the subject under discussion cannot possibly be confused with something else. Notice she writes By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them..
I don't see how anyone can miss that the glory of God is a consuming fire. She just said in the sentence before "His very presence is to them a consuming fire." and in the very next sentence "the glory of Him who is love will destroy them."
So from this is it not clear that the glory of God is a consuming fire, and that this fire destroys the wicked?
Now let's come back to the statement in DA 108. "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." The only new element to this quote is that the same thing which destroys the wicked gives life to the righteous. Now if we understand that it is indeed the light of the glory of God which destroys the wicked, just as she says it is, it is not difficult to understand how this could give life to the righteous. But if we understand that it is literal fire that destroys the wicked, then we have a problem: How does literal fire give life to the righteous?
Note, by the way, that this is not unlike what we read in Isaiah:
Quote:
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. (Isa. 33:14, 15)
I'll get to the Scriptures you quoted a bit later when I get a chance.
Thanks for your reponse!
Tom
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73807
06/02/06 07:35 PM
06/02/06 07:35 PM
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Tom,
I am not disputing any of that.
God can consume the wicked any way He chooses. He obviously will be consuming them by fire. When God is ready, the wicked will be consumed in the Lake of Fire. Until then, or at least until probation closes, the wicked still have a chance to turn to Jesus Christ and repent and be baptized for it is God's desire that all the wicked will repent, however, history has already shown that all of the wicked will not repent. History also shows that most of the wicked will not repent. This fact brings sadness to God.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73808
06/02/06 08:02 PM
06/02/06 08:02 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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You say you're not disputing what I wrote, which was that the glory of God is a consuming fire, which gives life to the righteous but destroys the wicked. It follows then that you agree with this? From the rest of what you wrote, this is not clear to me. While it is true that God can consume the wicked any way He chooses, I think this may give a wrong idea, as if there was more than one possible way the wicked could be destroyed. There isn't. God can only choose to destroy the wicked in a way which is in harmony with His character, and there is only one way by which this is possible, which is the following: Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
The choice of the wicked to be excluded from heaven, and hence destroyed, is voluntary with themselves (GC 542). It has to be, because force is not a principle of God's Government, and God will not put down the rebellion by force.
Quote:
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 749)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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