Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

This agrees perfectly with what I've been presenting. I could not have presented a better text. In fact, this is the same text I've been presenting, just slightly before it.

Notice she says that Jacob could not endure the revelation of God's presence only because he had repented of sin. This makes it clear that it is sin which is the problem. God's presence doesn't change; it is what it is. What changes is us, and sin is what changes us. Sin makes it so that we cannot bear God's presence. As she puts it, wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. Why? Did God do something arbitrary to destroy them? No, He simply revealed His presence, and noone can endure God's presence while willfully cherishing sin. But those who repent can endure God's presence, without God's doing anything different. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.

I'll think I'll stop here for now and await your response, and consider the others afterwards if you wish.

Tom

Tom,
From what I have read in the Bible, I do not believe your position lines up with what the Bible teaches about the wicked being destroyed. The judgmene t of the wicked is an inevitable fact. I do not belive your theology lines up with what the Bible teaches in thsi aspect. I have seen this by your reluctance to accept the fact that Jesus said that there is a place of gnashing and teeth, that the lake of fire was created for the devil and His angels, the Flood, the desrtruction of Sodom and Gamorrah. What that has to do with God's glory as you say that is what destroys the wicked I have absolutely no idea and do not know how you came to that conclusion.
Have a Happy Sabbath,
Will

This is what I read in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy:

1. At the Second Coming of Jesus all the wicked will be destoyed by His brightness...they will be calling out for the rocks to hide them right?

2. The living saints along with the resurrected saints will ascend to Heaven for 1000 yrs. to judge the wicked.

3. Satan is bound to this earth for that 1000 yrs. Bound meaning he has no one here on earth to tempt any longer...just him and his evil angels.

4. After the 1000 yrs are over the New Jeurusalem willt accend to this Earth along with all the saints and Jesus, etc.

5. Then the wicked will be raised again and Satan will rally them together still trying to take over....but him along with ALL the wicked angels and ALL the wicked people on this earth from all ages who made their choice to serve Satan instead of God will be burn up in the lake of fire. This is when the lake of fire comes into being...not before.

Along the lines of what Will and Avalee have posted, if the lake of fire was only a revelation of the character of God, (and I agree that it is that) it would not cleanse the earth of its physical impurities and prepare it for the new creation. So while it is probably correct to say the more important dimension of the lake of fire is the revelation of truth, we must also let scripture take its intended meaning and acknowledge that this revelation of truth is no ordinary revelation and is sufficient to burn not only into hearts and minds but to also consume the physical. It is this physical aspect, which most if not all of us acknowledge is less important than the spiritual, that your theory doesn’t account for.

And I have to go on to say that a similar deficiency is evident in your presenting the atonement of Christ as a revelation of the character of God and not acknowledging its personal, substitutionary nature. You claim to present a loving picture of the character of God, but love is defined by both mercy and justice, not in a vacuum. This mercy and justice is that of a Person. It is true that the character of God is what entitles Him to rule; in the symbol of the sanctuary the throne of God represented by the mercy seat is founded four-square on the ark containing the law representing His character. But you err in turning this image upside down and unwittingly placing the ark, or character of God above His thrown or person. In scripture, God is seated in government on the foundation of his character, not in subordination to it. If the only thing that deals with sin is the character of God and not God himself directly then the ark would be above the throne in scripture, but it is not that way. Your view, is IMO a result of presenting only one side of these things, so, Tom aren't you doing violence to the very truth, the character of God, you claim to be contending for?

Jesus suffered the wrath of God on the cross. But Jesus did not suffer the second death on the cross. Instead, He tasted and consumed it. This explains why Jesus was not cast into the lake of fire or why fire was not part of His substitutional death on our behalf.

It is Satan who suffers our second death in the lake of fire on our behalf. His suffering and second death are not substitutional in the sense of salvation. But it is substitutionary in the sense of eliminating the presence and existence of our sins.

Will,

1.I agree the judgment of the wicked is an inevitable fact.
2.You state that you don't agree that the ideas I have been presenting agree with the Bible, but you don't present any reasons as to why. It would be more helpful if you would develop some sort of argument as to why not. You're stating you disagree doesn't really serve a purpose.
3.You are incorrect in asserting I have a reluctance to accept that Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I have quoted Jesus' saying this.
4.I agree that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels.
5.I agree that Sodom and Gemorrah was destroyed.
6.Regarding the statement that you have no idea how I got the idea that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, the idea isn't original to myself. The Spirit of Prophecy said it:

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them." (DA 107)

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

As you have resposted a portion of your post on a different thread, I am reposting my response to that portion of your post.

If the lake of fire was only a revelation of the character of God, (and I agree that it is that) it would not cleanse the earth of its physical impurities and prepare it for the new creation.

If you have read what I've written in the past, you will see that I do not disagree with this. I think that Rosangela's idea on this is possible. It's also possible that the same forces which caused the earth's crust to give way, leading to the flood, cause the earth's crust to give way again, leading to it becoming a lake of fire, a molten mass. What I disagree with is the idea that God causes the wicked to be swimming in molten lava and supernatually keeps them alive so that He can boil them alive, torturing them, for perhaps many days.

So while it is probably correct to say the more important dimension of the lake of fire is the revelation of truth

What is this truth? Is that truth that God will torture you with a torture worse than the Roman church or Nazi Germany could devise, and then kill you if you don't do what He says? Or is the truth that to sin, wherever it is found, God's presence is a consuming fire; that the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked? It's important that we identify just what the truth that is being revealed here is, as it impacts how we perceive God's character, which is crucial.

, we must also let scripture take its intended meaning and acknowledge that this revelation of truth is no ordinary revelation and is sufficient to burn not only into hearts and minds but to also consume the physical. It is this physical aspect, which we acknowledge is less important than the spiritual, that your theory doesn’t account for.

First of all, the theory is not mine. As Kevin H. pointed out, it's been within Adventism for over a hundred years, and there have been many proponents of it. Secondly the theory does account for the physical aspect. I have never denied that the wicked will be physically destroyed by fire or that the earth will be purified by fire.

A similar deficiency is evident in your presenting the atonement of Christ as a revelation of the character of God and not acknowledging its personal, substitutionary nature.

I don't disagree that the atonement of Christ was either personal or substituationary. I disagree that it was substitutionary in a penal arbitrary way, but not that it was substitutionary or personal. Ty Gibson's comments will go into this in detail.

You claim to present a loving picture of the character of God, but love is defined by both mercy and justice, not in a vacuum. This mercy and justice is that of a Person. It is very true that the character of God is what entitles Him to rule; in the symbol of the sanctuary the throne of God represented by the mercy seat is founded four-square on the ark containing the law representing His character. You err in turning this image upside down and unwittingly placing the ark, or character of God above His thrown or person.

Again, I see no contradiction between God's character and His person. God, in His person, never acts contrary to His character.

In scripture, God is seated in government on the foundation of his character, but not in subordination to it. Your view, which seems to be to the contrary, is IMO a result of presenting only one side of these things, therefore, I ask you again, aren't you doing violence to the very truth, the character of God, you claim to be contending for?

Only if it were true that God at times acts contrary to His character.

I agree, Mark, and this is the opinion I presented in former discussions with Tom. The glory of God burns into hearts and minds but also consumes the physical.

I agree, Rosangela. You cannot disassociate the physical from the mental.

"When it is too late, he [the sinner] will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed." {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}

But we see that this fire is also literal, because it will consume the earth and all the wicked.

When we are told that the glory of God is a consuming fire to sin wherever it is found, what is the character of this fire? The word "literal" I don't think is sufficient here. I think "literal" as you are using it here , means "fire such as I know it."

I don't think when she says "to sin wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire" she meant it to be taken in a non-literal way. She is describing an actual truth. God's glory really does consume sin. It really is a consuming fire. People really cannot come into God's presence while cherishing evil because they really will be destroyed because God's presence really is a consuming fire which really will consume sin. His glory really will destroy them.

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men.... The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They 'shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.' Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' ... In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches" (GC 672, 673).


The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. (DA 763, 764)

Satan's destruction in the lake of fire is in no sense substitutionary. This is a misuse of the term. To suggest that Satan is a substitute for us is to suggest that Satan did somethiing so that we wouldn't have to. When applied to Christ, this concept applies. When applied to Christ, it does not.

Satan suffers in direct proportion to his sin, just like every other sinner.

Because of the laying on hands on the scape goat, which represents Satan, and the Spirit of Prophecy's interpretation that this represents the sins of the righteous being place on Satan's head, I think there is a tendency to think that this is some arbitrary act on the part of God to make something happen which wouldn't have happened had God not imposed this upon Satan.

This is not at all what is happening. God is not arbitrary. He is merely describing the truth the that Satan will suffer for all the sins he has caused; he bears the guilt of the sins of those he has led into sin. He is not being treated any differently than any other creature. Since Satan originated sin, he bears more responsibility for it than anyone else.

Consider the following statement from Early Writings:

Quote:

---

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.(EW 294)

---

Satan doesn't just suffer for the sins of the righteous that he had a part in, but also for the sins of the wicked which he had a part in.