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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73829
06/04/06 03:21 AM
06/04/06 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
This agrees perfectly with what I've been presenting. I could not have presented a better text. In fact, this is the same text I've been presenting, just slightly before it.
Notice she says that Jacob could not endure the revelation of God's presence only because he had repented of sin. This makes it clear that it is sin which is the problem. God's presence doesn't change; it is what it is. What changes is us, and sin is what changes us. Sin makes it so that we cannot bear God's presence. As she puts it, wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. Why? Did God do something arbitrary to destroy them? No, He simply revealed His presence, and noone can endure God's presence while willfully cherishing sin. But those who repent can endure God's presence, without God's doing anything different. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.
I'll think I'll stop here for now and await your response, and consider the others afterwards if you wish.
Tom
Tom,
This quote is in connection to the Second Coming of Christ in which the righteous are either resurrected or translated by the light of the glory of God, or more specifically, the light of the glory of the Son of God, namely Jesus Christ, and this same light of the glory of God, or again more specifically, the light of the glory of the Son of God, namely Jesus Christ at His Second Coming, slays the wicked. This is different from the second death of the wicked in the Lake of Fire which is done differently than it was at His Second Coming. The former was a death of the wicked from which there would be a resurrection and the latter was the Second Death of all the wicked, fallen angels and wicked humans, in the Lake of Fire, that also purifies the earth for Christ's act of recreation of a new earth.
This continues to answer the question in this topic of the fact that all may have been saved for either eternal life or eternal death, but not all have been saved for eternal life as most of them will suffer the pains of the Second Death.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73830
06/04/06 04:45 AM
06/04/06 04:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl, you're missing the point I was making. I'll try to be more clear. The Spirit of Prophecy is dealing with a principle, which is that to sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. She quoted 4 or 5 Bible texts to show this is true, and then applied it to several situations. Your idea that the statement "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" should be isolated and applied only to the Second Coming of Christ is not tenable. It would counteract the whole context of the passage, and her intent, which is to apply the principle that God is a consuming fire to sin, wherever it is found, to a variety of circumstances. It is one universal principle, but applicable to many different situations, including the incidents in the Old Testament she refers to, the Second Coming of Christ, and the destruction of the wicked at the end. Secondly she makes the same statement, that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, directly, both elsewhere, and in this very passage. First elsewhere: Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
There's no doubt this is applying to the destruction of the wicked, not the Second Coming of Christ, correct?
OK, now here's the application, *from the very passage under consideration*
Quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
When is sin destroyed? At the destruction of the wicked, right? So this statement agrees with the one from DA 764. As I pointed out previously, the only new element to the DA 108 statement is that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is what destroys the wicked. She already said elsewhere that the glory of God destroys the wicked. She just hadn't said that the same thing which destroys the wicked gives life to the righteous. This is a wonderful and profound truth.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73831
06/04/06 07:24 AM
06/04/06 07:24 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Tom, you stated: Quote:
2.You state that you don't agree that the ideas I have been presenting agree with the Bible, but you don't present any reasons as to why. It would be more helpful if you would develop some sort of argument as to why not. You're stating you disagree doesn't really serve a purpose.
I have actually presented several texts, so your question has been answered. It just hasn't satisifed you because you haveburrowed yourself into a hard position whcih the end result means "oops I was wrong" and it does serve a purpose, the purpose is to show you that God will destroy the wicked, and that the wicked will be cast into a lake of fire, this fire is real, not some figurative wording used to describe a non-descript object.
Perhaps you need to read more carefully at what I am saying, as I understand your scholarly position and use of fanciful theories are looking for the "intellectual higher learning" form of discussion, which looks to puff ones self. I like to use my sword as an offensive weapon as well as defensive. Your leanings on the SOP with no Bible text shows me that you cannot back up your theory, yet others here have used the SOP and the Bible to actually counter on many occassions your theory that God will not destroy the wicked. Thats your contention that God will not destroy the wicked. I have seen this type of talk many many times. "God doesn't destroy", "The fire isnt real" etc etc. When its not true. The Bible is clear on this.
Last edited by Will; 06/04/06 07:25 AM.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73832
06/04/06 07:25 AM
06/04/06 07:25 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Tom,
Are the wicked destroyed by fire? yes or no.
Is the fire real? yes or no.
Is the lake of fire real? yes or no
Is the mealting of the elements real? yes or no?
Is the fire that comes from God out of heaven on the wicked that surround the New Jerusalem and destroys them real? yes or no
And no I am not talking bout the light of God's glory, I'm talking about fire like fire and brimstone, heat, flames etc etc.
Last edited by Will; 06/04/06 07:27 AM.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73833
06/04/06 02:21 PM
06/04/06 02:21 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: Satan's destruction in the lake of fire is in no sense substitutionary. This is a misuse of the term. To suggest that Satan is a substitute for us is to suggest that Satan did somethiing so that we wouldn't have to. When applied to Christ, this concept applies. When applied to Christ, it does not.
MM: I disagree. The scapegoat concept is substitutionary. Satan will die with our sin and second death in the lake of fire. Jesus did not eliminate our sin and second death on the cross. If He did neither would exist to be placed upon the Devil at some future time. Instead, Jesus earned the legal right to own our sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death. As rightful owner of all sin and death it His duty to eliminate them in the only proper manner, and that is to destroy them with Satan in the lake of fire.
TE: OK, now here's the application, *from the very passage under consideration*
MM: Mental agony is only one aspect, Tom. There are other places where Sister White plainly describes the physical aspect. People will punish and burn in duration according to their sinfulness.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73834
06/04/06 07:53 PM
06/04/06 07:53 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Are we all saved?
Well if we are already saved then the Bible Prophecies are for nothing and would therefore be false teachings, as would the inspired writings of the SDA founders and people like Martin Luther and Crammer and others.
Yes Christ the Son of the Living God came to this earth and lived the life that Adam and Eve should have. A prefect life that depended upon The Father for every breath and every act and His every thought was to do the Will of the Father. Christ gave his life that we might have life and, which we might be saved.
In order for use to be saved we must give ourselves to the Father as a willing holy sacrifice. We give our will to the Father our free choice to Him who first loved us.
If we make a decision to refuse the Father and His gift of Salvation and we refuse the sacrifice that His Son gave and we refuse the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives then we have decided to follow satan and his life style. Thus we become agents not of God but of satan. We are now opposing the Almighty God and His Will. We no longer have the Blood of Jesus to cover us but we have our record of sin that places a death penalty on us.
God does not wish that any be lost, He loves each and everyone that has been or is and is to be on this earth, He wants all to be saved, as does His Son.
However, the sad fact is that very few are willing to give themselves over to the Will of God and to follow Jesus, to let the Holy Spirit lead them and they will have to be destroyed, for they have rejected God and hate God and His ways. This does not mean that those who are a live or will live cannot at some point change and follow Christ and God and allow the Holy Spirit to lead their lives.
Everyone has the ability to be saved; the Bible explains how this can be done. It does not however teach that we are saved if we do not live the way that the Almighty God has preordained that we should live.
When the disciples taught that we are saved they were not talking to unbelievers but to followers of Christ.
To teach otherwise would be in error, and this is done by not using the Bible text in context and line upon line.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73835
06/06/06 12:03 AM
06/06/06 12:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Will, it seems to me clear that the fire is real, and the fire is just what inspiration tells us it is: the glory of God. Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Suppose for a moment that this statement is correct, and the wicked really are destroyed by the glory of God. Notice that the Spirit of Prophecy states that Satan and all who unit with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. Is this a real fire? Sure, why not? Do you have some reason for supposing that it isn't?
Imagine God wanting to communicate this truth in a vision. What do you suppose the vision would look like? It seems to me it would look like just what John and Ellen White saw.
So, yes, the fire is real, and the wicked really are destroyed, and they are destroyed by the glory of God, just like it says.
Tom
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73836
06/06/06 12:14 AM
06/06/06 12:14 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: Satan's destruction in the lake of fire is in no sense substitutionary. This is a misuse of the term. To suggest that Satan is a substitute for us is to suggest that Satan did somethiing so that we wouldn't have to. When applied to Christ, this concept applies. When applied to Christ, it does not. MM: I disagree. The scapegoat concept is substitutionary. Satan will die with our sin and second death in the lake of fire. Jesus did not eliminate our sin and second death on the cross. If He did neither would exist to be placed upon the Devil at some future time. Instead, Jesus earned the legal right to own our sin and second death when He lived and died the perfect life and death. As rightful owner of all sin and death it His duty to eliminate them in the only proper manner, and that is to destroy them with Satan in the lake of fire. MM, I think you're making a mistake by taking a spiritual truth and applying it in a misconstrued way. The sins of the righteous are not literally placed on Satan. Sin isn't a think which can be transferred from one being to another like a fingernail or strand of hair. Sin is in the mind. What she is communicating is that Satan will bear the responsibility for the sin he has caused. He bears responsibility for his part of the sin of both the righteous and the wicked.Quote:
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. (EW 294, 295)
The word "substitute" means "a person or thing that takes or can take the place of another." Now it is true that Christ was our substitute, but it is in no sense true that Satan will be a substitue for us. He in no sense takes our place.
TE: OK, now here's the application, *from the very passage under consideration*
MM: Mental agony is only one aspect, Tom. There are other places where Sister White plainly describes the physical aspect. People will punish and burn in duration according to their sinfulness.
The passage didn't say anything about mental agony.
Quote:
"I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)
There's nothing in this passage to indicate she is intending to limit this to mental agony. She says the glory of God will "destroy them." It will "slay the wicked."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73837
06/06/06 12:21 AM
06/06/06 12:21 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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David, when the word "saved" is used, I find it helpful to define what is intended. Usually it is used in the sense of getting to heaven. Everyone here agree (except Darius perhaps) that not everyone will get to heaven.
The word "saved" is not only used in this sense, however. For example, Scripture refers to Christ as "the Savior of the world" and "the Savior of all men, especially those who believe." Given that it says "especially of those who believe," it is clear that Peter intended that it be understood that Christ was also the Savior of those who don't believe, in some sense, or else it would not make sense for him to say that Christ is "especially" the Savior of those who believe.
Also the Spirit of Prophecy points out that on several occasions that Christ "saved the world."
An example would be, say you are crossing the street, and someone pushes you out of the way of an oncoming vehicle which would have killed you. Did this person save your life? Yes. Does that mean you can't be killed by an oncoming vehicle at some point in the future? No. That could still happen.
Similarly, Christ saved the human race by undertaking the Plan of Salvation, at infinite cost to Himself, and at great risk. We should be thankful for that, and share this good news with others. The emancipation papers of the human race was signed by His blood.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73838
06/06/06 01:47 AM
06/06/06 01:47 AM
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What does we have all been saved fit here: Quote:
Mat. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
It says shall be saved meaning that only those who endure to the end shall be saved. Those who do not endure to the end will not be saved.
Yes, in one sense we have all been saved or granted a time of probation to repent, however, the Bible shows that not all will repent, therefore, in another sense we have not all been saved.
I think everybody would agree with this.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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