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Re: The Sin Problem
#74317
05/30/06 01:58 AM
05/30/06 01:58 AM
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Good observation, Mark.
It's God who will eventually remove the sin problem, not the devil, and not us.
What is the only way the sin problem can be removed?
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74318
05/30/06 04:04 AM
05/30/06 04:04 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Veteran Member
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74319
05/30/06 12:53 PM
05/30/06 12:53 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Good observation, Mark.
It's God who will eventually remove the sin problem, not the devil, and not us.
What is the only way the sin problem can be removed?
It is true that it is God who removes the sin problem. It is he who is the saviour from sin. What you fail to realize is that death is part of the sin problem.
You asked: "What is the only way the sin problem can be removed?"
In context of your posts, that would imply, that the only way the sin problem can be removed is by death. I suppose that also means that none can be saved and that death is the ultimate power of God.
The following scripture tells us the opposite:
1Co 15:26-28 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. ... that God may be all in all.
It tells us that wherever an aspect of death still exists, by that much it is not God.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74320
05/30/06 12:58 PM
05/30/06 12:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
The testimony of scripture is not only that sin kills, but that both God and his saints will bring the works of evil into judgment. I would be glad to see such important truths acknowledged, but you both seem to spiritualize them away.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Good point, but I have spoke much on judgment, Mark. Judgment is something that sin and sinners fear; because their judgment is perverted, and not in truth. And we have sought to address this point many times here. I would be happy to do a thread on it. Judgment is what it is about. Here is perhaps the best example of: “that which saves the righteous, slays the wicked”.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74321
05/30/06 01:48 PM
05/30/06 01:48 PM
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Eternal life for the redeemed, but second death to the wicked is the only way the present sin problem will be removed.
The Bible says that sin will never ever happen again, therefore, when the above happens, the sin problem will be removed for all eternity.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74322
05/30/06 02:26 PM
05/30/06 02:26 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Darryl, That says nothing as to the cause or way of either eternal life or death.
The way you eliminate sin is the same way you keep it out; keep it from cropping up again.
So if sin is eliminated by the threat and execution of death, then the future security of heaven will also rest in that same threat.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jam 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Does God practice what he preaches?
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74323
05/30/06 03:37 PM
05/30/06 03:37 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The fact Lucifer sinned in the first place is unexplainable. To suggest that sin will not arise a second time based on the idea that knowing God well enough will prevent us from wanting to sin undermines the following insight. The only reason, the only reason, we can say sin will not arise a second time is because God says so. That's it.
GC 492, 493
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74324
05/30/06 07:11 PM
05/30/06 07:11 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mark, thank you for your response. I am presenting what I believe to be a balanced view. I understand that sin will kill us, and that we need to be healed from its deadly effects. Quote:
The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison had permeated his whole body. (ST 10/25/05)
Here sin is likened to poison. "The sting of death is sin." (1 Cor. 15:56). Sin kills! To make the case that God must kill us if we sin is not to present a balance, but an altogether different perspective, which is that sin is not really such a bad thing; it is not deadly.
Do you see the difference of the two paradigms? One paradigm is like this:
a.Sin is bad because it kills us.
b.God must save us from sin, in order to save us from death.
The other is.
a.Sin is bad because it is.
b.God, for the good of the universe, must punish sin and destroy sinners who would continue it.
In the first paradigm, God acts as a Savior; He saves us from death by becoming sin for us. In the second paradigm, it is God Himself that we need to be saved from.
This is quite different. I don't see how in the second we can avoid being afraid of God. This seems to me that it would have to impact our relationship with Him in a negative way.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74325
05/30/06 08:22 PM
05/30/06 08:22 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
The fact Lucifer sinned in the first place is unexplainable. To suggest that sin will not arise a second time based on the idea that knowing God well enough will prevent us from wanting to sin undermines the following insight. The only reason, the only reason, we can say sin will not arise a second time is because God says so. That's it.
This is missing the point of a major reason why Christ died on the cross for us.
Quote:
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. (DA 759)
Christ died to settle the Great Controversy. He made clear the principles of God's government vs. the principles of the enemy's, and made manifest His character vs. the character of the enemy.
The only way the war could be won, the only way to place the universe on an eternal basis of security, was to make manifest the differences between God and Satan.
Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
Your assertion is supposing that Christ's death no impact on things, that the universe was just as much at risk before His death as after. It's true that it is a mystery why sin came about in the first place, but it is not a mystery why it will not arise again. And the reason is not because God says so! God says so, because it is true, and it is true because of the cross.
Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God.(5SDABC 1132)
Note this sentence in particular: Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan.. The corollary to this is that with the cross, they are more secure than before the cross.
It is because of the cross that sin will not arise a second time! It is not because of an arbitrary decree of God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74326
05/30/06 08:31 PM
05/30/06 08:31 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl, if you will re-read my post, you will see that it addresses your question of how the sin problem is removed. For your convenience, I'm reproducing a portion of it.
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1.God wants us to be in heaven.
2.God is trying to get us into heaven, and will succeed, if we don't prevent Him.
3.Sin keeps us out of heaven.
4.How does sin keep us out?
a.Sin causes us to view God in a way He is not, resulting in our not wanting to have anything to do with Him. The choice of the wicked to not go to heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just an merciful on the part of God. (GC 543)
b.Sin causes our ability and desire to understand spiritual things to wane and die.
5.How does God solve the sin problem?
By sending His Son, to reveal to us the truth about God's character, and the principles of His government. The following quote from the Spirit of Prophecy explains the purpose of Christ's mission:
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Note point 4. How does sin keep us out? It does so by causing us to view God in a way He is not. Given this is the case, it follows logically that the way to solve this problem is to reveal the truth, which is exactly what God did. The rest of my post established this point in detail.
Note, for example, the statement that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right through a revelation of God's character. Now we know that Jesus came to "save the people from their sins." Putting 2 + 2 together we see that if:
1)The whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God.
2)Jesus came to save us from our sins.
it's very clear that it is the revelation of God which saves us from our sins, right?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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