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Re: The Sin Problem
#74337
06/01/06 03:23 PM
06/01/06 03:23 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Take 2.
As I understand it, you are stating that the wicked live for some amount of time after they are separated from God, and the more sin they have, the longer they live. I think you also stated that God is not doing something supernatural to keep them alive. So the only conclusion I can think of from these facts is that sin allows you to live longer. Do you agree I am reasoning correctly based on what you wrote? This doesn't make sense, does it?
You stated that you agree with me that God does not supernaturally keep the wicked alive, so that they can be physically tormented by molten lava, or something similar, until they have paid in pain for their sins. But I don't see how what you are suggesting leads to any other conclusion. Here's the scenario we have:
a.The earth's surface is a molten mass.
b.The wicked continue to live.
How could they possibly continue to live? You would die within seconds of being placed in a mass of molten lava. The only way the wicked could not immediately die that I can see is if God supernaturally keeps them alive, which leads to the very scenario you agreed with me is not right.
Something which needs to be done is to harmonize DA 764 with the GC account. In trying to do that, what I have done is to start with DA 764 and use that as my base line. This is because she writes in very plain language there, and it seems to me that correct hermaneutics suggests starting with that which is most clear and then from there try to interpret that which is more difficult. Both in Revelation and the Spirit of Prophecy we have a description of something the prophet saw in vision. Visions are not meant to be taken literally. We need to figure out what the *meaning* of the vision is. The prophet is describing what he or she saw.
Let's consider just one short statement from the Desire of Ages on this. "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" (DA 108). This brings an important principle, which is that the same thing which slays the wicked gives life to the righteous. It seems to me this is a very important point to take into consideration. Given that light = truth and glory = character, this tells us that the revelation of the truth of God's character is life to the righteous and death to the wicked, which makes perfect sense to me. But if it is molten lava which kills the wicked, I don't see how to make sense of this. Certainly molten lava does not give life to the righteous.
Somehow we need an interpretation which takes into account that that which causes the death of the wicked is the same thing that gives life to the righteous.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74338
06/01/06 08:29 PM
06/01/06 08:29 PM
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Quote:
The fact Lucifer sinned in the first place is unexplainable. To suggest that sin will not arise a second time based on the idea that knowing God well enough will prevent us from wanting to sin undermines the following insight. The only reason, the only reason, we can say sin will not arise a second time is because God says so. That's it.
GC 492, 493
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}
The following EGW quote with a Bible quote and reference included in the EGW quote shows that sin will not arise the second time, or, in other words, sin will never ever happen again:
Quote:
In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless. . . . The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe. . . . Never will evil again be manifest. Says the Word of God, "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. . . . A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them. {The Faith I Live By 71.3}
The above quote not only states that sin will never ever happen again, it also clearly states that there was no excuse given for sin in the first place.
The sin problem will consequently be forever removed, never to happen again.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74339
06/01/06 08:34 PM
06/01/06 08:34 PM
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Here is the quote again from The Great Controversy: Quote:
The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate his love and establish his honor before a universe of beings who delight to do his will, and in whose heart is his law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the Word of God, "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." [NAH. 1:9.] The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC88 504.1}
I thought I would post this quote as just about everybody has a copy of The Great Controversy. 
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74340
06/01/06 09:06 PM
06/01/06 09:06 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't think anyone questions that sin will not arise a second time. I think it's important we understand *why* it will not arise a second time: Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God.(5SDABC 1132)
The reason sin will not arise a second time is that the questions raised by the Great Controversy have been answered. All who are with God know, and are totally convinced, as to His character. Never again will doubt arise, and hence, neither will sin.
That God was concerned about removing doubt is also evident from this quote:
Quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74341
06/01/06 11:24 PM
06/01/06 11:24 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Quote:
A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them. {The Faith I Live By 71.3}
I think that quote is a good summary as to why sin will not arise again. God's character will have been fully manifested, and all creation will have been given the chance to choose to become congruent with that character.
Quote:
A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
A full review of God's response to sin will definitively answer this question.
Bro Tom, I'm thinking about your reponse.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74342
06/02/06 12:05 AM
06/02/06 12:05 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok Arnold. Allow me to branch off a bit to another subject we've been discussing on the imputed righteousness thread, as it is related to this question.
You'll notice that the question that needed to be answered in order to secure the universe was the question of God's character. The cross manifested the truth about God's character, and thus won the Great Controversy. I believe the same work that Jesus did for the angels, He did for us.
Our problem is that we need to be reconciled to God because we have false views about His character. Jesus' mission was to reveal the truth about God, in order to set us right with Him.
Paul speaks about "things in heaven" as well as things on earth being reconciled to God, the things in heaven of course being angels. This is the same thought that Ellen White points out in saying that it was for angels as well as for us that Christ's cross acheived the victory. Now of course reconciliation means something different for angels than for man, since the angels remained loyal. We could think of the reconciliation of which Paul speaks in regards to angels as meaning "removing any doubt about God's character" and/or "bringing the angels even closer to God." (but this fits well for us too, doens't it?; except the "closer" might be better but as "close," since before being reconciled we were far away, whereas angels were already close).
How this ties into our present discussion is like this. If the problem of sin is a legal problem, then it makes sense for God to require a legal payment in order to resolve it. According to this view, Christ's death is to resolve a legal issue, and those who refuse to take advantage of the legal remedy must suffer the legal consequences.
OTOH, if the problem is not a legal one, but a problem of reconciliation, then the solution involves a revelation of truth rather than a legal remedy.
Now one might object and say it's not a matter of either/or, but of both. God needed to provide both the legal rememdy and the reconciliation. But I think both the legal theory and the theory that God will torture those who refuse the legal rememedy are vestiges of Romanism, although they have deeper roots than that, since the disire of "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth" runs deep in man.
Why the issue is important is if the legal theory is true or not may cause us to view God in fundamentally different ways. The key question is really the character of God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74343
06/02/06 10:27 PM
06/02/06 10:27 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Quote:
Our problem is that we need to be reconciled to God because we have false views about His character.
Deeper than that, when we have correct views about God's character, our natural depravity recoils from Him. That's why people tend to make God into their own image, so that He is not so repugnant to their inborn selfishness.
Therefore, I do not believe that a full revelation of God is all it takes to turn from sin. Lucifer had a pretty good view of God, but it didn't do him any good.
Beyond knowing the facts about God, we need a transformation of nature such that we can co-exist peacefully with God. Therefore, I look at Christ's work as two distinct parts: to reveal God's glory to man, and to restore God's glory in man. One informs, the other transforms.
I'm still thinking about your "legal problem" comments. How do you explain the legal imagery found in the Bible? Especially the substitutionary concepts found in the sanctuary?
I have another question. It seems to me that you believe that the "Lake of Fire" accounts in Revelation and GC are not literal, that they are figurative of some kind of spiritual lesson. Is that right?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74344
06/02/06 11:12 PM
06/02/06 11:12 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Quote:
Why is it so hard to believe God, when he said that he who sins will die? Why do you have to change that to: God will kill him.
It is sin that is deadly and not God. Sin is death; God is life.
I'd like to comment on an older post.
Quote:
1Co 15:56 - The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Quote:
1Jn 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
We are subject to death because of sin. And sin's strength stems from God's law. And God's law is just a transcript of His character.
Quote:
By sin we have been severed from the life of God. {DA 203.2}
Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
Sin makes us unfit to be in God's presence. Separated from the Source of life, we are unable to endure His glory.
So, the same glory that saves the repentant will destroy the wicked. God is not passive in this process.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74345
06/02/06 11:58 PM
06/02/06 11:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
We are subject to death because of sin. And sin's strength stems from God's law. And God's law is just a transcript of His character.
Yes Arnold, but sin’s use of the Law is not according to God’s character. So while sin usurps the Law of God for the purpose of death; the way the Law was given according to God’s character is for the purpose of life.
The Law, being a transcript of God’s character; sins use of it being not according to God’s character, means that the character that sin presents is contrary to God. That is the nature of sin. The difference being Life vs. Death. This is the deception of sin: impostoring God’s character for the purpose of working Death.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. (Not by God) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74346
06/03/06 12:10 AM
06/03/06 12:10 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Therefore, it is Sin that is active in the process of the use of the Law to work Death.
There is something we need to learn here.
The fact that sin works death in the sinner by that which is good (which was ordained unto life); is what makes sin by 'that very fact' exceedingly sinful.
Note: that sin’s usurpation of God’s Character is that very thing which is exceedingly sinful; and by that very means it works death.
So what does that mean to us?
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