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Re: The Sin Problem
#74327
05/31/06 12:27 AM
05/31/06 12:27 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
MM: The only reason, the only reason, we can say sin will not arise a second time is because God says so. That's it.Quote:
{GC 492.2}Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government.
It is then evident that the only reason sin will not rise again is because the great ‘law of love’ will be established in each heart, in so that the principle which is at war with it shall never rise again. This begins here and now. Therefore the true revelation of the character of God is the gospel unto salvation from that sin and death, which is at war with it. For this reason and for this cause Christ suffered the stripes and gave his life.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74328
05/31/06 01:00 AM
05/31/06 01:00 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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It looks like y'all been having fun here without me! Thanks to Bro Tom for telling me about this thread. I think it is important to understand why sin keeps us out of Heaven. I would like to add point 4c: Sin damages us such that when we find out what God is really like, we don't want to have anything to do with Him. Quote:
In his sinless state, man held joyful communion with Him "in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Colossians 2:3. But after his sin, he could no longer find joy in holiness, and he sought to hide from the presence of God. Such is still the condition of the unrenewed heart. It is not in harmony with God, and finds no joy in communion with Him. The sinner could not be happy in God's presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him. The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there --every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love --would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to those that actuate the sinless dwellers there. He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place of torture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy. It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. {SC 17.2}
Look at a couple more statements revealing the damage sin does to us.
Quote:
But should they once yield to temptation, their nature would become so depraved that in themselves they would have no power and no disposition to resist Satan. {PP 53.2}
Quote:
When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. {GC 505.2}
The problem is not just the fact that we do not know God. Worse, when we find out who/what God is, we want no part of it. We have no power to resist Satan, and we have no natural desire to resist Satan because we are naturally in harmony with him. Beyond misapprehension of God's character, we have a natural enmity against God's character.
Anyone in such a condition will consider Heaven torture. In self-sacrificing mercy, God lets them avoid that torture.
But one choosing to continue to be "dead in tresspasses and sins" and be separate from God does not necessarily mean that such a one will immediately die. Consider this:
Quote:
I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, and they were driven from the garden, lest they should partake of the tree of life, and be immortal sinners. The fruit of this tree was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed that flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of the family of Adam has passed that flaming sword, and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner." {EW 218.1}
There was a possibility of "immortal sinners" - those who continue to live apart from God.
How long will one continue to live if God chooses to completely cut him off from life? I don't know if we can know for sure at this time, since that has never happened. But we can know that some time in the future, God will initiate events that will quickly extinguish the lives of the impenitent.
As for what will keep sin from rearing its ugly head again, I think love does the trick. Man's fall and restoration reveals God's love in a way not known before the entrance of sin. This fuller manifestation of His love should keep the universe safe from ever thinking again that His government can be improved.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74329
05/31/06 03:38 AM
05/31/06 03:38 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Arnold, glad you could join the fun! I liked the first part of what you wrote very much. I had forgotten that SC had the same thing GC does, in the passage you quoted. Regarding the final death of the wicked, you seem to be implying that one can live apart from God. But that's not possible. God alone is the source of life. Separated from Him, we die. Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. (DA 764)
Also please note that Ellen White states in terms as clear as it is possible to state that it is the wicked, and not God, that set in motion the events which lead to their destruction. God is trying to *save* us from death.
In the passage in GC which is similar to the one from SC that you quoted, she writes:
Quote:
The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542)
It is the choice of the wicked to die. They choose to die because they want nothing to do with God. God honors their choice, which is just and merciful on His part.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74330
05/31/06 04:34 AM
05/31/06 04:34 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Quote:
Regarding the final death of the wicked, you seem to be implying that one can live apart from God. But that's not possible. God alone is the source of life. Separated from Him, we die.
I understand that. If you recall from the metanarrative thread, I believe that the fundamental reason for the death of the wicked is a separation from the Source of life.
But that SOP quote seems to imply, along with Genesis itself, that eating of the Tree of Life could prolong life, even as a sinner. I don't quite understand how that works, but there it is anyway.
Quote:
Also please note that Ellen White states in terms as clear as it is possible to state that it is the wicked, and not God, that set in motion the events which lead to their destruction. God is trying to *save* us from death.
I agree with that also. In the full analysis, it is the sinner who brings about his own destruction. But I don't see how we can say that the wicked will cause fire to rain down upon himself outside the New Jerusalem. Let's assume that Judas is out there; he does not have the ability to cause fire to come down and consume himself. That fire comes from God.
It is very possible that the fire is merely the natural result of sin being in the presence of God. That's the way it always has been and always will be. For those who cling to sin, the fire destroys. For those who let go of sin, the fire cleanses.
God saves us from death by convincing us to let go of sin. The gift of God (Rom 6:23) is not life that lasts a long time; it is life in Christ, regardless of duration. And try as one might, it is impossible to find sin in Christ. To me, that's the primary definition of salvation. That's why the grace that brings salvation leads us to live godly lives in this present age.
Quote:
It is the choice of the wicked to die. They choose to die because they want nothing to do with God. God honors their choice, which is just and merciful on His part.
I look at it this way: The sinner chooses to die spiritually (tresspasses and sins), and God mercifully accompanies that choice with physical death (fire from Heaven). Justice is served by allowing the sinner the free will to choose his path, and mercy prevails by putting the sinner out of his sinful misery.
WDYT?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74331
05/31/06 11:27 AM
05/31/06 11:27 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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I'd like to hear what you think about judgment John. Please go ahead and open a thread here or if you think another forum is better there, but let us know which. But isn't judgment directly linked to the sin problem? Would be making progress backwards to separate the two?
Tom, I don't know that we are covering any new ground. My view is that you don't give enough weight to the facts of scripture - the flood, the destruction of Pharoah's army, the conquest of Caanan etc. Theory always needs to be tested against fact and evidence. That's why the GC helps maintain a healthy perspective. How if you find a short SOP statement on the GC and interpret it?
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74332
05/31/06 03:20 PM
05/31/06 03:20 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Arnold, what you are writing, especially the last paragraph, appears to me to be very close to how I think.
Well, just to be clear, I'll explain what I think happens. You will recall in the Great Controversy it talks about how God will open the memories of each on as to what they have done and where He tried to reach them, etc. They become aware of every wrong thing they've done, of each place they have rejected light, and so forth. I believe this is the judgment, and the reason that some suffer more than others is that they have rejected more light. The suffering is exactly proportional to the sin because it is making known the sin that causes the suffering. There's nothing arbitrary that God does to punish them, but simply making known to them the accurate history of their lives *is* the punishment. That is the judgment.
We have an idea, just based on our own experience, of how painful it can be when our conscience is made aware of wrong things we have done. Just imagine what it would be like if everything we have done our whole lives were made known to us. That would cause incredible suffering, and one can very easily imagine this causing weeping and gnashing of teeth.
In GC 542 it explains that God would take the wicked to heaven if He could. But they have so runied themselves that they can't stand to be around God. His presence is to them a consuming fire. They hate heaven. They don't want to continue to live. Their exclusion is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
This seems to me to be what you are saying.
The only thing that I would add is that I do not believe that God supernaturally keeps the wicked alive so that He can cause them excruciating physical pain by being boiled in molten lava. This is as contrary to God's character as anything I can imagine. I hope we're on the same page here as well.
Regarding the tree of life, it is God who gives life, rather through a tree or whatever the mechanism is. God was not held hostage by the tree. God could have allowed access to the tree and still the result could have been that Adam or whoever would die. God is, after all, more powerful than the tree He created.
God, through the tree, was communicating a truth, which is that life comes from Him. When He disallowed Adam and Eve to continue to eat from the tree, He communicated another truth, which is was not God's will to immortalize sin.
I think John B. has provided a good explanation as to what was going on in the beginning. God needed to create man in such a way that if man should choose to sin it would be possible for him to have another chance. Once man has made a decision, this is no longer an issue. IOW, the tree isn't relevant, as far as I can tell, in relation to the destruction of the wicked.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74333
05/31/06 03:26 PM
05/31/06 03:26 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mark, I didn't understand your last post. I don't know what you're talking about. The purpose of this topic was to outline what I felt the sin problem is, and God's way of meeting it. I presented that point by point.
Summarizing it, the problem, as I see it, is that sin causes us to view God in a way He is not. The solution is for God to present Himself the way that He really is. This is what God did in Jesus Christ. To support this, I did not present a short statement from the Great Controversy, or any statement at all from the Great Controversy. I presented a couple of paragraphs from the Desire of Ages and a short statement from an article of the Signs of the Times. That whole article deals with the theme, however.
I pointed out that both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy refer to the fact that Christ's whole mission was the revelation of God.
If you think something I've written is inaccurate or incorrect, please feel free to quote it, and present some argument or evidence or whatever to make your case.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74334
06/01/06 02:31 AM
06/01/06 02:31 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Quote:
You will recall in the Great Controversy it talks about how God will open the memories of each on as to what they have done and where He tried to reach them, etc. They become aware of every wrong thing they've done, of each place they have rejected light, and so forth. I believe this is the judgment, and the reason that some suffer more than others is that they have rejected more light. The suffering is exactly proportional to the sin because it is making known the sin that causes the suffering. There's nothing arbitrary that God does to punish them, but simply making known to them the accurate history of their lives *is* the punishment. That is the judgment.
Bro Tom,
I believe that there is truth to what you wrote, but I don't think it paints the entire picture. Here's a quick review from GC:
Quote:
- At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on ... Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle ... the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}
- As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}
- The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}
- Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged ... Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. ... He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. ... The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}
- Fire comes down from God out of heaven. ... The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
- The wicked receive their recompense in the earth ... Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. ... The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. ... The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
Indeed, a full and accurate review of our sins is a dreadful punishment, but the SOP declares that there is more than that. After the review, fire comes down from God. Only after that is it said that the "full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met."
One unchanging fact is that God is a consuming fire to sin. The salvation God offers involves cleansing the repentant by consuming the sin he chooses to forsake. If that fails, the only option left is destroying the unrepentant by consuming the sin he chooses to hold.
Quote:
Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. ... The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. {GC 673.1}
Look at that last quote. Here are the wicked, filled with hatred of God, yet they do not die instantly. Satan, whose hate for God cannot be surpassed, lives the longest in the fire.
Here is a sampling of my ponderings:
- How can they survive for any length of time while separated from the Source of life?
- How is it that the more wicked one is, the longer he lives?
- Does God give Satan "extra" life so that he can burn longer?
Quote:
I do not believe that God supernaturally keeps the wicked alive so that He can cause them excruciating physical pain by being boiled in molten lava. This is as contrary to God's character as anything I can imagine. I hope we're on the same page here as well.
I do agree with your comment. When I couple that with the account in GC, I conclude that separation from God does not result in immediate death; the sinner can survive for a time.
Also given the fact that the destruction of the wicked happens at about the same time, I conclude that God initiates their final demise. (Either that or the account I reviewed above will require a coincidence of cosmic proportions.)
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74335
06/01/06 03:50 AM
06/01/06 03:50 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Well, Arnold, I wrote a nice answer, which took a long time to compose, but made the mistake of not saving it in an editor, which I usually do in case it gets nuked when I try to submit it. I got the dreaded feedback letting me know it wasn't going to go through and quickly tried to get back, but it was already too late  . So maybe tomorrow. Bummer.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74336
06/01/06 04:22 AM
06/01/06 04:22 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Quote:
I got the dreaded feedback letting me know it wasn't going to go through and quickly tried to get back, but it was already too late .
Sadly, I know exactly what you're talking about. Unless it's very short, I always use Notepad, then cut/paste.
I'll wait for your response.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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