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Re: The Sin Problem
#74357
06/04/06 03:28 AM
06/04/06 03:28 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
MM: This love, which was planted in Lucifer and Adam and Eve did not prevent them from choosing to sin. The law of love does not prevent anyone from choosing to sin.
I think this is where you are missing MM. Love is not something that can be "planted" or given at creation. Love is born. This is why those which are born of the spirit of God are sons of God. It is not necessary to sin before being born.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74358
06/04/06 01:34 PM
06/04/06 01:34 PM
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SDA
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I agree. God's knowing the end from the beginning is not what empowers restored sinners to never choose to sin again. The reasons why they will not choose to sin again are many - abiding love is just one of those reasons. But the same dynamics applied to Lucifer and Adam and Eve before they sinned. They were just as equipped to sin or not to sin.
In the same way God foresaw the great controversy He foresees restored sinners never choosing to sin again. Why they will never choose to sin is just as mysterious as why Lucifer and Adam and Eve choose to sin. The only reason why we can know in advance that affliction shall not arise a second time is because God knows the end from the beginning. We can trust God's foreknowledge because He is omniscient.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74359
06/04/06 02:44 PM
06/04/06 02:44 PM
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Quote:
I agree. God's knowing the end from the beginning is not what empowers restored sinners to never choose to sin again.
I agree. The controversy between good and evil has nothing to do with God knowing it from the beginning to end, and the controversy is not solved by his knowing it either.
So I think we need to apply ourselves to the salvation, which he has paid such a great price for, so that it would not be in vain.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74360
06/05/06 04:58 AM
06/05/06 04:58 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
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TE: Christ died to settle the Great Controversy. He made clear the principles of God's government vs. the principles of the enemy's, and made manifest His character vs. the character of the enemy. MM: If Jesus settled the GC on the cross why, then, is it still going on? Principally it is because of man. The Spirit of Prophecy, around DA 764 I think, tells us that the angels also had more to learn about God's character and the principles of His government.TE: It is because of the cross that sin will not arise a second time! It is not because of an arbitrary decree of God. MM: The reason why God is able to say with certainty that sin will not arise a second time is because He knows the end from the beginning. There is nothing arbitrary about it. It would be arbitrary if there were no reason for it. But there is a reason, which is that the cross decided the issue, just as the quote I provided explained in detail. Did you read the quote? Do you disagree that the quote stated that the cross made the difference, and is what allowed the universe to be placed on an eternal basis of security?JB: It is then evident that the only reason sin will not rise again is because the great ‘law of love’ will be established in each heart, in so that the principle which is at war with it shall never rise again. This begins here and now. Therefore the true revelation of the character of God is the gospel unto salvation from that sin and death, which is at war with it. For this reason and for this cause Christ suffered the stripes and gave his life. MM: This love, which was planted in Lucifer and Adam and Eve did not prevent them from choosing to sin. The law of love does not prevent anyone from choosing to sin. Nor does it enable God to predict the future outcome of free moral agents. It is God’s ability to know the end from the beginning that enables Him to the future with perfect clarity. MM, do you think the cross made any difference, in terms of resolving the Great Controversy? How do you understand the following quote?Quote:
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 762)
DF: The sin problem will consequently be forever removed, never to happen again.
MM: The conditions that made sinning possible in the first place will continue to exist throughout eternity – namely, free moral agents (FMA). God is restoring paradise lost through the plan of salvation. Once sin and death and sinners have been eliminated in the lake of fire things will be restored. Which means FMAs will still possess the ability to sin and rebel.
The fact they will never choose to sin is true because God knows the end from the beginning – not because they are better built or equipped than Lucifer or Adam or Eve.
They are not better built or equipped, but better informed. The Spirit of Prophecy states directly, and many times, that the issues of the Great Controversy have been decided because God's character has been made evident. This is what was not known before. This is why there was a Great Controversy in the first place! The quote I provided previously explained this. The quote from DA 762 explains this. Here's another quote that explains it:
Quote:
A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law.
Well, then, might the angels rejoice as they looked upon the Saviour's cross; for though they did not then understand all, they knew that the destruction of sin and Satan was forever made certain, that the redemption of man was assured, and that the universe was made eternally secure. Christ Himself fully comprehended the results of the sacrifice made upon Calvary. To all these He looked forward when upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished." (DA 764)
Do you see from this that it is the cross that makes the difference?
The idea that having an intimate knowledge of sin and death makes restored FMAs less capable or less willing to sin and rebel suggests that there was something wrong or lacking in Lucifer and Adam and Eve which led to their terrible demise. Such a suggestion implicates God.
Where did you get the idea that having an intimate knowledge of sin and death makes any difference? It's the cross that makes the difference! The heigh and depth of the love of God has been revealed; God's character has been made known. *That's* why sin won't arise a second time, just like the SOP statements say.
We cannot explain why Lucifer or Adam or Eve sinned so as to give a reason why they did. Nor can we explain why restored FMAs will never choose to sin again in the future.
Yes we can! The reason is just exactly that which God has revealed to us! The cross made clear to us, and the unfallen worlds, the character of the enemy, the nature of sin, and the character of God. I would suggest a close look at the chapter "It is Finished" in "The Desire of Ages" which goes into this in great detail. For example:
Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion....Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted.
Please consider againg the following quote:
Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God.(5SDABC 1132)
Please note the following:
"That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven." This states as explicitly and clearly as it is possible to state what the reason is that sin will not arise again. It is the significance of the death of Christ, seen by saints and angels, which secures the universe.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74361
06/05/06 05:04 AM
06/05/06 05:04 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mark, I posted some comments by Ty Gibson in a separate thread, in addition to the two posts I wrote to respond to your good questions. I know it's a lot to read, but that's what you get for asking good questions!
If you think it would be a good idea, or perhaps you might choose to do so, the Ty Gibson quotes could be cross-posted here.
Tom
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74362
06/05/06 01:35 PM
06/05/06 01:35 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: They are not better built or equipped, but better informed. The Spirit of Prophecy states directly, and many times, that the issues of the Great Controversy have been decided because God's character has been made evident. This is what was not known before. This is why there was a Great Controversy in the first place!
MM: I disagree. The GC was not necessary to prevent future sinning. Loyal FMAs chose not to sin because they were convinced of the character and kingdom of God. Also, it was not necessary for Adam and Eve to sin to know God well enough to never want to sin. Had they successfully resisted Satan in the Garden of Eden the GC would have been settled once and forever – without sinning, and without the death of Jesus on the cross.
There are many reasons why FMAs will not chose to sin after Paradise is restored. Yes, the cross of Christ is the main one. Please do not misunderstand me. I am not minimizing the cross. What I am arguing against is the idea that sin and death were necessary to love God better than Lucifer and Adam and Eve did before they sinned, that they were necessary to prevent future sinning.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74363
06/05/06 10:00 PM
06/05/06 10:00 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM:There are many reasons why FMAs will not chose to sin after Paradise is restored. There's one which is mentioned as important. Quote:
That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
That's it! Not one reason among many, but *the* reason. The word "alone" makes this clear: "That which alone ...."
MM:What I am arguing against is the idea that sin and death were necessary to love God better than Lucifer and Adam and Eve did before they sinned, that they were necessary to prevent future sinning.
You are arguing against the idea that sin and death was necessary to prevent future sinning? Yes, that's certainly true. God did not indend that sin should happen. There was no reason for it to occur, as you've pointed out.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74364
06/06/06 03:06 AM
06/06/06 03:06 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
MM:What I am arguing against is the idea that sin and death were necessary to love God better than Lucifer and Adam and Eve did before they sinned, that they were necessary to prevent future sinning.
You are absolutely right MM.
Sin was and is totally unnecessary. Sin and death are God’s enemies.
God’s purpose was one and the same in the beginning of creation, whether sin rises or whether it never rises. The purpose and plan in creation was:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto son ship through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
God’s purpose was that his creation should become born of his spirit and become sons. No sin was ever necessary for this purpose. There is a difference between created sons and born sons. But before one can be born (spiritually) one needs to be created.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Since sin did come in, God’s purpose and plan did not change. Only now the cost was greater. The cross was a revelation of the love of God and the faith of the Son. In the spiritual sense the cross is the personal spiritual experience of the new birth. It is such, whether there be sin or not.
What that means is that whether one had ever sinned or not; heaven or earth; there comes a time when ones judgment differs with the Lord, and when one cannot see it; when God’s way may seem unreasonable. When giving up some thing or setting aside some desire is not enough. And the point brings one to the overwhelming place of either placing one ‘self’ on the altar in death to self, or rebelling against God. Thus the point of spiritual birth is the place of the altar, or the cross. Having once been on the altar, there is no turning back, because a son has been born, and the oneness with the father is then unbreakable. This experience is to be had whether one never sinned or has sinned, whether earth or heaven.
In this way God has purposed to gather all things together in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him.
So we can clearly see that sin was not necessary, as those that are gathered in Christ which are of heaven have not sinned.
The ultimate goal is this:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Thus sin will not arise any more, because there is a difference between creation and sons. That is why sin could (not would) arise before and will not arise after.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74365
06/06/06 04:31 AM
06/06/06 04:31 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Since sin did come in, God’s purpose and plan did not change. Only now the cost was greater. The cross was a revelation of the love of God and the faith of the Son. In the spiritual sense the cross is the personal spiritual experience of the new birth. It is such, whether there be sin or not.
Amen! Not only did God's purpose and plan not change, neither did His methods or the principles of His government.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Sin Problem
#74366
06/06/06 04:42 AM
06/06/06 04:42 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
What that means is that whether one had ever sinned or not; heaven or earth; there comes a time when ones judgment differs with the Lord, and when one cannot see it; when God’s way may seem unreasonable. When giving up some thing or setting aside some desire is not enough. And the point brings one to the overwhelming place of either placing one ‘self’ on the altar in death to self, or rebelling against God.
Just a small quibble. I see the scenario you are portraying as possible, but not necessary, and you may agree with that, since you used the word "may" in "may seem unreasonable." There was no necessity for anyone every seeing any of God's works as unreasonable. That could happen, and indeed it did, but it needn't have.
However, regardless of whether sin had arisen or not, the principle of the cross would need to be seen; the glorious truth about God's character would have become known, and that would have securred the universe against sin, just like it will. But God could have had (certainly would have, in my view) some other way of teaching His children the truth about Himself, without the unfortunate misery which sin has brought about.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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