Ok, I think I see what you're saying. I'll tell you how I would say it, and you can let me know if I'm saying the same thing.

Since God is infinite, there would come a time when one would come across something one could not understand about Him. At this point one would need to trust in what one knew about His character, or rebel.

Yes that is the idea,

But trust him to the point of putting on the altar the "judgment throne" of one's being.

Like Isaac, like Abraham, like...

In other words God's glory (love) is in selflessness, and to be one with him, one has to enter in the fellowship of selflessness. Thus self needs to be set aside.

Yes, but not reason. I'm not sure what putting putting the "judgment throne" of one's being on the altar means.

Let me try to reason from what I do understand you JB theology. Justification by faith involves setting aside our righteous for the righteousness of God, which would involve our way of seeing things, our way of judging, for God's way. I assume this is what you have in mind.

In our situation, this involves a sacrifice, because we have selfishness inwrought within our being. We don't like to admit we're wrong. This forum is a tremendous example of this trait of human nature.

God brings us to the point where we realize we are in error, and then we have the choice to accept truth or reject it, which results either in greater light or darkness. I think we're in tandemn here.

Now let's consider the case where sin has not entered the world. In this case, there really isn't a need for conflict, is there? It is self which originates conflict, isn't it? If created beings would continue to adhere to the principles which were inwrought into their beings, there would be no need for conflict. Selflessness would not involve conscious sacrifice; it would just be the standard operating procedure (I was going to say "SOP," but that could be taken to mean something else!)

I think you know I agree completely with your overall outlook on the Plan of Salvation; I'm just exploring with you a bit what things might have been like had sin not entered the picture, something which, clearly, we have to surmise.

Tom

I am with you.

Perhaps a meaningful way of saying it is: There comes a time when the judgment of self-interest (though sinless) needs to cross into the domain of love.

Even in a sinless world, the interaction of persons always requires give and take, and judgment is a factor. Judgment by its very nature deals with fairness, and occasions occur where fairness does not appear. The point of reference (paradigm shift) then needs to become “the Love chapter” when a righteousness which is not of the Law takes over; the righteousness of God apart from the Law. Those are the son’s of God.

TE: That's it! Not one reason among many, but *the* reason. The word "alone" makes this clear: "That which alone ...."

MM: I disagree. True, the cross of Christ is the main reason restored sinners will not choose to sin throughout eternity. Crucifying Christ afresh would be unthinkable. But it is not the only reason. They will also choose not to sin because the personal results are unpleasant, namely, punishment and death. Also, the effect it would have upon fellow FMAs would be repulsive.

The GC was not necessary to prevent future sinning. Loyal FMAs chose not to sin because they were already convinced of the character and kingdom of God. They needed no further proof. Also, it was not necessary for Adam and Eve to sin in order to know God well enough to never want to sin again.

Had Adam and Eve successfully resisted Satan in the Garden of Eden the GC would have been settled once and forever – without sinning, and without the death of Jesus on the cross. The evil angels would have been destroyed without threatening the future security of the universe. The death of Jesus would not have been necessary to settle the GC or to safeguard the future.

I totally disagree, Tom. The cross of Christ did not settle all the issues related to the GC. That's why it's still raging right now. It did not end at the cross. And it will not end until the 144,000 vindicate the character and kingdom of God.

If Adam and Eve had successfully resisted Satan in the Garden of Eden Jesus would have destroyed the evil angels immediately. There would have been no reason to prolong their lives, no reason to delay destroying them instantly. Adam and Eve would have vindicated the kingdom and character of God had they refused to eat the forbidden fruit. Satan would have had no leg to stand on. His accusations would have been proven base and groundless.

The idea that Jesus had to suffer and die in order to vindicate the kingdom and character of God is false. It implies that sinning was necessary to disprove Satan’s accusations. Which is completely absurd. Besides, Jesus’ life and death were not enough to disprove Satan’s accusations, to vindicate God. Not until the 144,000 demonstrate loyalty during Jacob’s time of trouble will the GC be finally won. This same thing could have happened in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve refusing to rebel.

ED 154
For those who love God, those who are "the called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28), Bible biography has a yet higher lesson of the ministry of sorrow. "Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God" (Isaiah 43:12)--witnesses that He is good, and that goodness is supreme. "We are made a theater unto the world, both (R.V., margin) to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9, margin. {Ed 154.2}

AG 36
The fallen world is the battlefield for the greatest conflict the heavenly universe and earthly powers have ever witnessed. It was appointed as a theater on which would be fought out the grand struggle between good and evil, between heaven and hell. {AG 36.2}

DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}