Mike

I think the statements you made here deserves a solid biblical basis. Could you do a biblestudy on it? Note that I am NOT asking for a list of prooftexts written by Ellen, nor am I asking for a list prooftexts from the bible but rather a study based in the bible alone.

Have I understood you correctly that your claim is that the solution to the sin problem isnt what Jesus has done for us but a group of people who are able to reject sin in their own power, without divine help, stand spotless before God without the priestly duties of Jesus being offered for them? If there exists a biblical basis for such a belief, Id like to see it.

/Thomas

Thomas, I am referring to the GC (great controversy) which includes the sin problem but isn't limited to it. Before we explore your request please answer the following questions:

1. What is the GC?

2. What does it involve?

3. Was it finished at the Cross?

4. If not, when will it be over, and why?

MM, two questions:

1. Would you agree that the Great Controversy was decided at the cross? That by the cross, the elimination of evil was made certain?

2. In this quote:

That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels.

how do you understand the word "alone"?

John, that death by execution is God’s plan for punishing and destroying sinners is evident in the words – “thou shalt surely die”. It is also plainly stated in the Bible and the SOP. The flood and fires of Sodom are examples of how God punishes and destroys the wicked.

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

TE: 1. Would you agree that the Great Controversy was decided at the cross? That by the cross, the elimination of evil was made certain?

MM: Yes, but I also believe the elimination of sin and sinners was made certain the day Jesus volunteered to save us. Jesus explained it detail in the following passage. These were not the words of an over optimistic, wishful thinker.

SR 43
At first the angels could not rejoice, for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man. {SR 43.1}

But there is more to winning the GC than Jesus living and dying the perfect life and death. The 144,000 must also demonstrate loyalty and victory during JTOT and those who receive the MOB must also demonstrate disloyalty and failure.

TE: 2. How do you understand the word "alone"?

MM: Of all the things that motivate us to never want to sin again the cross is the only one that can do it alone. There are other things that motivate us to never want to sin again but they are not strong enough all by themselves to do it alone, they must be coupled with the first one – the cross.

MM, you are now agreeing that the Great Controversy *was* decided by the cross, and that the cross is what will lead to the eradication of evil. I'm confused about what you've been arguing about, because this in the point I've been trying to make all along.

Since Thomas has answered, I'd like to suggest some answers as well. Thomas, you're answer to question 1 was clever.

The Great Controversy is the battle between Satan and Christ, between good and evil. Satan's main means of conducting this warfar is by mispresenting God's character, as well as His own. Specifically, He represents God as being like himself -- harsh, arbitrary, cruel, sever, unforgiving, selfish, imposing His will to get His way, and presents himself as being like God -- having the best interests of God's creatures at heart, being interested in freedom, not having a hidden agenda, and so forth.

God's method of winning the Great Controversy is by making known the truth. He must make known His own character as it is in truth and the principles of His government, while allowing the enemy to do the same for his character and his government. Then His creatures will have the opportunity to choose which system they want.

A problem is that the enemy has been so successful in his misportrayals that many reject God with no cause. That is, if they had any idea what God was *really* like, they would respond to Him.

This is where we come in. We have the opportunity of sharing the truth about our wonderful God. He is just like Jesus Christ, not at all like the enemy has portrayed Him.

The Great Controversy was decided at the cross, which made all the issues clear. The cross ensured that evil would be eradicated, by making known the truth. It also ensures that sin will not arise again for the same reason.

The reason we are still here is that the message to prepare the world for the coming of Christ has not been given. That's a simple answer to a profound question. There's more to it than that, but this is a fundamental starting point.

The Great Controversy will come to an end when every one has made a decision one way or the other and been made aware of their role in it. All will voluntarily agree that God has been fair, and that His character and governmental principles are just as He has said they are. Unfortunately, while all will agree that God has been fair (which vindicates Him), many will voluntarily choose not to spend eternity with Him because their characters have been ruined by believing Satan's lies. Interestingly, even Satan has believed his lies, so much so that, for example, the very principle of unselishness is one that Satan denies even exists.

Thomas, thank you.

Tom, winning the GC started with Jesus living and dying the perfect life and death - "from the foundation of the world". The GC will be won when the 144,000 demonstrate loyalty. The GC will be over when the wicked are destroyed and the New Earth established.