MM, that's a bit too succinct. You asked some good questions. Perhaps you could flesh out your answers to them a bit more.

To say that winning the GC started with Jesus living and dying the perfect life and death is to deny that Christ won it. To start to win something is different that winning it.

I asked you directly if you agreed that Christ's death decided the Great Controversy, and you said it did. Now it seems you may be backtracking from that answer, so I'll reask the question.

Do you believe that Christ's death decided the Great Controversy? Do you believe that His death ensured the evil would be eradicated? (note I'm not asking if His death "started" to do these things, but if it actually accomplished these things).

Tom, I do not believe Jesus won the GC on the cross. His promise to save us from our sins and to restore paradise, a promise He made when our first parents fell, guaranteed He would win the GC. There is no way He can lose, no way He would fail on the cross, no way the 144,000 will fail to vindicate the kingdom and character of God.

What Jesus did on the cross was stage one of a two stage plan to win the GC. Stage two involves the 144,000 demonstrating loyalty and faithfulness (i.e., refusing to doubt God’s favor and forthcoming deliverance) during JTOT.

If the 144,000 were to fail to vindicate God then theoretically Jesus would lose the GC. But they will not fail because Jesus knows the end from beginning. For the same reasons He knows sin will not arise again He knows the 144,000 will succeed. His knowing in advance does not empower them but it will encourage them.

MM, do you think the Great Controversy was decided at the cross? Do you think the cross guaranteed that evil would be eradicated?

The death and resurrection of Christ revealed that the love of God is greater than hate; that the spirit of God is stronger than death; that forgiveness is greater than accusation. The power of sin was broken. Death was overcome; righteousness and judgment restored.

His life revealed what all these things mean.

That is what the controversy between good and evil is about; life vs. death.

John, I'm reading a book called "Repenting of Religion" (what a great title!) which speaks of how man's judging was the original sin of partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The author explores the principle that love is antithetical to judging. Much of what the author says reminds me of the ideas you've been sharing.

When I come across a good "sound bite" I'll share it.

He's a non-SDA, but follows along the same lines as we've been sharing on this thread.

TE: MM, do you think the Great Controversy was decided at the cross? Do you think the cross guaranteed that evil would be eradicated?

GC 503
The great controversy which had been so long in progress was then decided, and the final eradication of evil was made certain. {GC 503.3}

Yes, but what do you think? What you've been presenting does not seem to agree with what you quoted. You have been repeating that Jesus Christ did not win the Great Controversy at the cross. But here you cite a quote that states He decided it. "Decide" means "to arrive at a solution that ends uncertainty or dispute about" which agrees exactly with what I've been saying. If you agree with what I've been saying, what are you arguing against?

Let's assume for a moment that you agree that the Great Controversy was decided at the cross. Why was it decided at the cross? That is, what happened at the cross that decided the issue?

Again, Jesus did not win the GC on the cross. But it was made obvious that He would win it some day in the future. The word "decided" in GC 503 means there was no way Jesus would lose the GC in the future. The thing that makes it obvious is the word of God. His word will not return unto Him void.

Yes, certain important things about Jesus and Satan were revealed at the cross, but other unanswered questions remain, questions that must be answered before Jesus can win the GC, before He can punish and destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire, before He can restore Paradise Lost. But we can be certain He will accomplish these things.

But this certainty depends upon the 144,000 demonstrating loyalty during JTOT. Their experience will answer the questions Jesus' life and death could not. The cross, however, does not in and of itself prove that the 144,000 will be successful. The only reason can know with certainty now that they will succeed then is because Jesus says so. He knows the end from the beginning. We can and must trust His word. Faith is the victory.

That's not what "decided" means. Not at all. To decide means "to bring to an end; to settle conclusively." It doesn't mean to make something possible. For example, "The case was decided" Note that this is equivalent to saying "The case was won." "Won" is a synonym for "decided" in the sense of saying that Jesus Christ decided the Great Controversy.

Not only does Ellen White say that Jesus decided the Great Controversy, she explains why. And there is nothing in her explanation which says anything about making it possible to win it in the future.

In order to understand how Jesus decided, or "brought to an end" or "settled conclusively" the Great Controversy, it is necessary to understand what the Great Controversy entails. The Great Controversy is a war of ideas. The devil present an alternative view of reality, a view where the devil's form of government was better than God's, and God's character was in question. The reason Jesus Christ decide, or "brought to an end" or "settled conclusively" the Great Controversy at the cross is because He conclusively settled the issues Satan had raised. He demonstrated all of Satan's claims were false. All that remains now is for everyone to become informed as to what happened.

Nowhere will you find God ever telling us to believe something He said because "He said so." This is the epitome of arbitrariness. God says, "Come let us reason together."

God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith. Steps to Christ 105

TE: The reason Jesus Christ decide, or "brought to an end" or "settled conclusively" the Great Controversy at the cross is because He conclusively settled the issues Satan had raised. He demonstrated all of Satan's claims were false. All that remains now is for everyone to become informed as to what happened.

MM: Jesus did not disprove all of Satan’s accusations. He settled some, but not all. Satan claims that it is impossible for man to obey the law of God. But Jesus came and demonstrated that it is possible for humans to obey the law, and that obedience is the only way to experience true peace of mind.

It’s one thing for Jesus to say and show that it is possible for humans to obey the law of God, but it’s quite another thing for it to actually happen. That’s where the 144,000 come in. Not until they meet Satan head on after probation closes, when Jesus no longer mediates in heaven, will Satan admit that he has been defeated, that his accusations are untrue. Not until then will he bow down with the rest of universe and acknowledge the sovereignty of Jesus. Then GC will reach a conclusion in the lake of fire.

8T 207, 208
Passing down through the centuries, we find that there came a time when God's law must once more be unmistakably revealed as the standard of obedience. Christ came to vindicate the sacred claims of the law. He came to live a life of obedience to its requirements and thus prove the falsity of the charge made by Satan that it is impossible for man to keep the law of God. As a man He met temptation and overcame in the strength given Him from God. As He went about doing good, healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {8T 207.3}

OHC 48
Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. {OHC 48.2}

The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}

TE: Nowhere will you find God ever telling us to believe something He said because "He said so."

MM: Not so. In the case of Nahum 1:9 we must take God at His word. In the case of any unfulfilled prophecy we must take God at His word. I know the 144,000 will succeed because I believe what God says. He knows the end from the beginning.