No, MM. Good works are not required to retain it. Faith is. That's what you wrote earlier.

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The point is that justification is retained (maintained) through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Do you agree?

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Faith which works is what is reqired. Not works, but faith.

There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)

I agreewith you Tom.

Maybe M.M. has more pressure on works as he is promoting a sinless life is possible for a sincere loving Christians.

In His love

James S.

Tom and James, show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works. Sound familar? See James 2:14-26. Faith without works is unbelief. Good works are evidence that faith works.

No one is arguing this point. I was taking issue with your second statement that we retain justification by our works. That is false. Your first statement, that we retain justification by faith which works is true.

The quote from EGW from FW 18 brings out the point well. And reading the pages preceeding give the context, where she brings out the same point that Romans does, which is that if we can do anything to commend ourselves to God, then God becomes a debtor to us, and this can't be. As Paul puts it, grace would no longer be grace.

Salvation, which includes both justification and sanctification, is by faith in Christ alone (FW 18).

No new thoughts on Justification?

Then I think we are in common here that Justification is an act of God , his grace towards hopeless men that saves them, justifying them in Christ and changing their sinful self loving heart to a sinless agape heart.

A duo act to solve a duo problem.
First, giving men their life back that was robbed by Adam.
Second, changing their sinful self loving heart to a sinless agape heart.

The first was done by Jesus Christ through his life, death on the cross and resurrection.
The second is done by the Holy Spirit whom God had sent.

To save men is wholly God’s act, his grace towards men, not depending on our will. You will or not, God had saved you, that is a fact, that is the Gospel.

Christ had given our life back by conquering the death for us, so that we, who believed in Him might be victorious over death. And through the Holy Spirit, we that believe Him, might have a change of heart that is fit for heaven where agape love rules.

The Final Justification is then based on our faith in Christ; do we believe Him or not.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36.

The problem is, that I asked in the new topic “Do we transgress the 1st commandment or not?”, should we believe Christ as the Son of God, or should we believe him as God, considering he was the Creator of heaven and earth? Answer this question in the new topic.

In His love

James S

Hey James, I liked this post. A couple of comments.

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The first was done by Jesus Christ through his life, death on the cross and resurrection. The second is done by the Holy Spirit whom God had sent.

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Did you intend to split up Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit here? Both are involved in both works, aren't they?

When you say "the first was done by Jesus Christ's life death and resurrection ("the first" being giving man back the life he lost in Adam), what do you mean? I completely agree with your statement; I'm just curious if what you said means the same thing to you as it means to me.

Also could you clarify what you mean when you say that to save is God's act, independent of man's will.

Tom.

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Did you intend to split up Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit here? Both are involved in both works, aren't they?
Unquote.

I mean that redemption comes through Jesus Christ (who was all the time depending on the Holy Spirit) and recreation of our hearts comes through the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name. Is that OK?

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When you say "the first was done by Jesus Christ's life death and resurrection ("the first" being giving man back the life he lost in Adam), what do you mean? I completely agree with your statement; I'm just curious if what you said means the same thing to you as it means to me.
Unquote.

Jesus is the 2nd Adam, in the 1st Adam we die, in the 2nd Adam we live.

Sin and death came through the 1st Adam, righteousness and everlasting life comes through our Lord Jesus Christ, the 2nd Adam.

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Also could you clarify what you mean when you say that to save is God's act, independent of man's will.
Unquote.

In Christ, we have our corporate salvation, an objective fact , and an act of God that came and saved men through the life-death-and resurrection of Jesus Christ, independent of men’s will , because He loves us so much.

But that doesn’t change the fact that man is still conceived in sin, born in sin and is under sin. This needs a 2nd treatment, to release us from the domination of sin, which is subject to our will , to believe Christ, denying self through a live by His Spirit.

Since God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), He work hard to appeal us to repentance that even in some cases seems like he is forcing us independent of our will, which is not so, but seems so.

Sanctification then is a subjective process but at the end all men is justified by his faith, dependent on God’s grace.
In His love

James S

MM: The point is that justification is retained (maintained) through faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

TE: No, MM. Good works are not required to retain it. Faith is.

TE: Your first statement, that we retain justification by faith which works is true.

MM: I agree.

MM, your post isn't making sense. You've got me replying to something I wasn't replying to. What you actually wrote was this:

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Again, we obtain justification by faith, but we must retain it through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Faith is required to obtain pardon, and good works are required to retain it.

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To which I responded:

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TE: No, MM. Good works are not required to retain it. Faith is.

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For you to edit out your second sentence, which is the sentence I was was responding to, and make it look like I was responding to the first sentence, which I wasn't, is misleading.

Maybe this was just a mistake on your part(?).

Here's a description of the role of the law by E. J. Waggoner:

Did God wish to mock the people by giving to them a law which could bring them nothing but death? Far from it. "Yea, He loved the people;" and never did He love them more than when "from His right hand went forth a fiery law for them."

For be it remembered that although "the law entered that the offense might abound," yet "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Since it is the law that makes sin to abound, where can its hideous magnitude be more clearly defined than at Sinai? But since "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound," it is evident that at Sinai we may most clearly see the vastness of God's grace. No matter how greatly sin abounds, in that very place grace superabounds. What though "the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven?" Still we have the assurance, "Thy mercy is great above the heavens; and Thy truth reacheth unto the clouds."1 "As the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him."

Blessed law, that reveals to us the height of God's wondrous grace! Shall we revile it and hate it, because it makes sin to appear in all its hideousness, and reveals the abundance of it? Far from it; the greater and more hideous and deadly sin is seen to be, the more is God's superabounding grace magnified. The law is the pedagogue to bring us to Christ, and therefore, although it is unbendingly stern, it acts in reality the part of A COMFORTER, because it is "in the hand of a Mediator."