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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74783
08/10/06 06:38 PM
08/10/06 06:38 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The reason I keep pointing out that Eve was surprised that she did not die immediately when she 1) touched the fruit, and 2) after she ate it - is to make it clear that she understood the consequences of sinning was instant death, not a gradual first death.
But Eve wasn't surprised she did not die. Obvsiously she ate the fruit expecting the things the serpent had said were true.
Given that no one had died at the time God warned her to not eat of the forbidden fruit, how we would know what she thought death meant?
Saved by default?
It's true that death is the default of sinning, but life is the default of grace. Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74784
08/11/06 01:09 PM
08/11/06 01:09 PM
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Tom, we're going to have to disagree that Eve understood she was supposed to die immediately upon sinning - instead of a gradual first death. And it looks like we're going to have to disagree that she was at least slightly surprised when she did not die immediately the moment she touched the fruit and then again after she ate it.
The following quote says: the blood of Jesus is what makes it possible for God to justify pardoning repentant sinners - instead of immediately punishing and destroying them. This quote refutes the idea that Jesus did not die to give God the legal right to pardon sinners, that the blood atonement was not required in order for God to justify pardoning us, that God was not bound by law to justify pardoning us..
NL 27
By reason of the sacrifice made by Christ for fallen men, God can justly pardon the transgressor who accepts the merits of Christ. {NL 27.1}
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74785
08/11/06 01:24 PM
08/11/06 01:24 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, you've been asked several times now why you believe Eve was surprised she didn't die. As several have pointed out, it's obvious that she believed the serpent, who said she *wouldn't* die.
Why do you believe she was surprised?
I'm not understanding why you think this, nor why you won't answer this question.
As to the quote you cited, I don't understand it the way you are. I understand it the way Fifield did.
He would like to forgive everybody. But why could he not do it? - It would annul his law, if it was an arbitrary law; but if it were not, it would lead men to go into sin, and sin and death would result. It would be God simply taking the place of the imprudent father and spoiling his child. And therefore, because he could not do that, he set forth Christ to be, not the propitiation of God's wrath, but the propitiation of our sins, that God might be just, and still the justifier of them who believe in Jesus; because he would take the sins away from them if they believed in him, and then he could set them free, and be just in doing it, for he would not lead anybody else into sin in doing it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74786
08/11/06 03:44 PM
08/11/06 03:44 PM
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Quote:
by MM: The following quote says: the blood of Jesus is what makes it possible for God to justify pardoning repentant sinners - instead of immediately punishing and destroying them. This quote refutes the idea that Jesus did not die to give God the legal right to pardon sinners, that the blood atonement was not required in order for God to justify pardoning us, that God was not bound by law to justify pardoning us..
NL 27
By reason of the sacrifice made by Christ for fallen men, God can justly pardon the transgressor who accepts the merits of Christ. {NL 27.1}
Again, MM, you read into quotes what you want to hear. This quote could just as well be understood to say that Christ’s sacrifice showed us the goodness of God which would lead one to sincere repentance. Pardon can only be granted to those who sincerely repent and accept the merits of Christ. You interpret the “sacrifice” as some literal blood that Christ had to spill to appease God’s insatiable appetite for blood in order to forgive. I interpret “sacrifice” as the greatest act of love every displayed! God was “in Jesus” reconciling the world to Himself.
In Christ, scott
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74787
08/12/06 02:04 PM
08/12/06 02:04 PM
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TE: Why do you believe she was surprised? I'm not understanding why you think this, nor why you won't answer this question.
Page 14
#84439 - Thu Aug 10 2006 01:04 PM
The reason I keep pointing out that Eve was surprised that she did not die immediately when she 1) touched the fruit, and 2) after she ate it - is to make it clear that she understood the consequences of sinning was instant death, not a gradual first death.
TE: Given that no one had died at the time God warned her to not eat of the forbidden fruit, how we would know what she thought death meant?
MM: The angels explained it to them. She anticipated “evil results” when she touched the forbidden fruit and “grew bolder” when nothing happened. “Perceiving no evil results from what she had done, Eve grew bolder.” She was no doubt relieved when nothing happened and was encouraged to take the next step, that is, to actually eat the fruit. Adam was “astonished and alarmed” to discover that she had disobeyed and was still alive. He, like Eve, understood that instant death was the result of sinning. But she “felt no evidence of God's displeasure”, and so she “reasoned” that she wasn’t going to die, that the serpent was “must be” telling the truth. Again, hers words indicate her uncertainty. Adams words confirm her insecurity: “He resolved to share her fate; if she must die, he would die with her. After all, he reasoned, might not the words of the wise serpent be true? Eve was before him, as beautiful and apparently as innocent as before this act of disobedience. She expressed greater love for him than before. No sign of death appeared in her, and he decided to brave the consequences. He seized the fruit and quickly ate.” [all quotes taken from PP 55-57 previously posted on page 13 on Sun Aug 06 2006 12:21 PM as post #84170].
TE: As to the quote you cited, I don't understand it the way you are.
MM: “By reason of the sacrifice made by Christ for fallen men, God can justly pardon the transgressor who accepts the merits of Christ.” There is more to it than Fifield wrote in the quote you posted. Sister White is clearly saying that the death of Jesus, which satisfies the just and loving demands of the law on our behalf, is what gives God the legal right to pardon repentant sinners, to justify saving them rather than immediately punishing and destroying them.
1. Do you agree that the law requires God to punish and destroy sinners? Or, do you believe the law simply points out that it is the glory of God that naturally causes sinners to suffer and die in duration and proportion to their sinfulness?
2. Do you agree that many OT laws, under a theocracy, required capitol punishment, that is, required people to “put to death” sinners for specific types of sins? If so, what does it tell us about the relationship between sinning and death? Why did God require people to stone sinners to death instead of allowing them to die naturally in the wilderness or while in prison?
3. If death is the natural result of sinning, what purpose does the law serve? Do we need a law to point out that if we sin, the glory of God will cause us to suffer and die a horrible and agonizing death? The cause and effect consequences would make it obvious that the glory of God kills sinners, right? But the plan of salvation prevents the glory of God from killing sinners, so it not obvious yet that it does, right? So, when will it become obvious to the universe? When God rains down fire from heaven upon the wicked at the end of time He isn’t present for His glory to destroy them. And, why doesn’t Jesus’ glory destroy them right away?
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74788
08/12/06 03:18 PM
08/12/06 03:18 PM
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S: You interpret the “sacrifice” as some literal blood that Christ had to spill to appease God’s insatiable appetite for blood in order to forgive. I interpret “sacrifice” as the greatest act of love every displayed!
MM: Yes, Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross demonstrates many of the lovely traits of character of the Godhead. The law requires God to punish and destroy sinners. It’s the way God set things up. Death is the only way to eliminate sin from the universe. Sin cannot contaminate the universe if there are no sinners. The death of Jesus buys God probationary time to save sinners, it makes it possible for Him to pardon sinners instead of having to punish and destroy them right away. Currently Jesus bears in His body and blood the sins of the world in the heavenly most holy place. He earned this right on the cross. At the end of time He will eliminate the sins of the saved with Satan in the lake of fire. Then the wrath of God, which is love, will be appeased and satisfied. After everything God has done to save sinners, if they refuse so great salvation, if they despise the death of Jesus – God’s wrath is justified, they deserve more punishment than if they had never known the way of salvation.
Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74789
08/13/06 02:46 AM
08/13/06 02:46 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, you still haven't addressed the question as to why Eve would eat a fruit she thought would result in her immediate demise. Why would should do such a thing? Isn't it much more logical that she believed the serpent, who told her she wouldn't die, and that's the reason she ate the fruit?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74790
08/13/06 03:09 AM
08/13/06 03:09 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Requiring the law demanding punishment for sin, this is treating the law as if it were a separate being apart from God. It isn't. It is a transcript of God's character. To assert that the law requires death as the punishment for sin is to assert that God requires such a thing. But what do we see of God's attitude when He dwelt amoung us in human flesh? Quote:
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
From the Desire of Ages we read the following comment:
Quote:
In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more. (DA 461)
The theme that God seeks not to destroy but to save is one noticeably missing from your posts, MM. Here is another example of the theme:
Quote:
While the degrading oaths were fresh upon Peter's lips, and the shrill crowing of the cock was still ringing in his ears, the Saviour turned from the frowning judges, and looked full upon His poor disciple. At the same time Peter's eyes were drawn to his Master. In that gentle countenance he read deep pity and sorrow, but there was no anger there.
(DA 712, 713)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74791
08/13/06 03:27 AM
08/13/06 03:27 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
1. Do you agree that the law requires God to punish and destroy sinners? Or, do you believe the law simply points out that it is the glory of God that naturally causes sinners to suffer and die in duration and proportion to their sinfulness?
Neiter of these. The law was given by God to protect us from the consequences of breaking it. He did this because of loves us, and does not want to see us suffer the ills that come from disregarding His wise principles. He created us, and knows what we need to be happy. Disregarding the principles of unselfish love can only lead to misery, suffering, and death.
Quote:
2. Do you agree that many OT laws, under a theocracy, required capitol punishment, that is, required people to “put to death” sinners for specific types of sins? If so, what does it tell us about the relationship between sinning and death? Why did God require people to stone sinners to death instead of allowing them to die naturally in the wilderness or while in prison?
You're looking in the wrong place to try to understand God's character! Look to Jesus Christ, MM! All that man needs to know or can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son, during His life on earth. Let's graduate from kintergarden first, and then tackle the more difficult questions. As God asked Jeremiah, "If you can't run with men, how can you run with horses?"
We should be established in agape, as Paul prayed, perceiving the heigh and length and depth and width of the love of God, so that Christ can dwell in our heart by faith. In Christ, we see that it is God's desire not to destroy, but to save; not to harm, but to heal; not to condemn, but to justify.
We see God's character revealed in Christ. See how He washed Judas' feet. See how He should Peter nothing but mercy and compassion, not a trace of condemnation on His countenance. See how He did not condemn the woman caught in adultery. See how He rebuked the disciples for suggesting that He would cause harm to those who were refusing to accept Him. See how He saved Simon by telling him a story that only Simon understood. See how He was willing to meet a proud Pharisee at night because the Pharisee was ashamed to be seen with Him, His creator, during the day.
What a humble, gracious, merciful, wonderful God Christ has revealed to us! May our hearts melt in appreciation! May we catch a glimpse of what Christ has revealed, and be transformed by the vision of the lovliness of His character!
Quote:
3. If death is the natural result of sinning, what purpose does the law serve? Do we need a law to point out that if we sin, the glory of God will cause us to suffer and die a horrible and agonizing death? The cause and effect consequences would make it obvious that the glory of God kills sinners, right? But the plan of salvation prevents the glory of God from killing sinners, so it not obvious yet that it does, right? So, when will it become obvious to the universe? When God rains down fire from heaven upon the wicked at the end of time He isn’t present for His glory to destroy them. And, why doesn’t Jesus’ glory destroy them right away?
What a funny question about the law! As if the purpose of the law were to cause death! The purpose of the law is the same as the purpose of God; to save, not do destroy!
God gave the law for our benefit. It was added because of transgressions, as a means to make clear to an obstinate blind people that they did not have the rightouesness which the law required. Waggoner explains it well.
"Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound." Rom.5:20. In other words, "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." Rom.7:13. It was given under circumstances of the most awful majesty, as a warning to the children of Israel that by their unbelief they were in danger of losing the promised inheritance. They did not, like Abraham, believe the Lord; and "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." But the inheritance was promised "through the righteousness of faith," and, therefore, the unbelieving Jews could not receive it. So the law was spoken to them, to convince them that they had not the righteousness that was necessary for the possession of the inheritance; for, although righteousness does not come by the law, it must be witnessed by the law. Rom.3:21. In short, the law was given to show them that they had not faith, and so were not true children of Abraham, and were therefore in a fair way to lose the inheritance. God would have put His law into their hearts, even as He put it into Abraham's heart, if they had believed; but when they disbelieved, yet still professed to be heirs of the promise, it was necessary to show them in the most marked manner that their unbelief was sin. The law was spoken because of transgression, or, what is the same thing, because of the unbelief of the people. (The Glad Tidings)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74792
08/16/06 12:33 PM
08/16/06 12:33 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
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by MM: The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}
Tom, if there is no difference between justification and sanctification, so far as faith is concerned, then why did she spelled it out like she did?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote.
Hi MM,
I see the difference as:
Justification is the beautiful character of God realized by an unbeliever who sees it and believes.
Sanctification is what God does in that same man if he continues to put his trust in God's goodness.
Justification has nothing to do with us. Salvation is by grace. In simple words, "we are saved because God is so loving". If we believe Jesus' testimony about the goodness of God and we fall in love with the person Jesus introduced us to then reconciliation has taken place and we are set right with God.
When we realize how loving and trustworthy God is then we open our minds to Him and He comes to live with us in the person of the Holy Spirit. If you hang with God you will change. This is sanctification.
In Christ, scott
Unquote.
Again, I like this, well brought.
In His love
James S.
I'll quote that much this time: I would only add to Scott's piece that justification by faith has everything to do with us, as sanctification has. Agreeing with God begins with what Scott left out: dying to self by grace through faith...since we are dead in Christ by grace - "one died for all; therefore are all dead", we each die in Christ by faith as his Spirit brings him to us, and that is necessary to agree with God, be justified by Christ through his Spirit and be at peace with God.
I perceive that Scott agrees with Tom about Christ's death not being necessary for salvation - just a demonstration of love by Jesus to convince sinners about agape. Is this in any way the case?
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