No, Scott: that never did work which is why Jesus didn't do it either. Once we've chosen God's will he accommodates our interests. I expected you to do your own homework on that point.

Oh, Scott, I should add that choosing God's will instead of our own involves dying to sin and self by faith in Jesus: we can only choose grace over sinfulness by Jesus having died as us so that we can die by faith as we choose grace.

Jesus is the focus of our choices and his death is our death. Otherwise we cannot die to self and sin since he wouldn't have died our death. His self-sacrificing love motivated him and motivates us by his own actions.

A legally necessary death and a restorable relationship by the reconciliation achieved by Jesus' propitiating atonement. Sorry for all the detail, but one can neither exclude dying to self from taking Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour nor reduce its detail in understanding it.

Sorry not to respond earlier, Colin. I think I was going to post something, was thinking about it, and then forgot.

A brief response is that I think there are elements that we can take from the different theories of the atonement. For example, from the ransom view (it had different versions) we get the idea that Christ liberated us from slavery was transfering us to a new kingdom, and a new master. This is similar to Israel's being redeemed from slavery.

From the moral influence theory we get the idea that we are motivated by God's love for us revealed at the cross.

From Christus Victor, we get the idea that Christ's life and death defeated the forces of evil.

From Anselm we get the idea that God's honor was offeneded, and Christ's death was necessary to restore it. I can make sense of Anselm's idea but putting it a little differently than he would. I would say that God's character (or honor) was vindicated by Christ's life and death, in that Christ showed what God was really like (e.g. John 1:18), and this vindicated His character (or restored His honor).

From Ellen White we get a cosmic understanding of the atonement, that Christ's death was not just for humanity, but had implications which reach the onlooking universe.

So I think all of these elements are important. I'm skipping the corporate or federal idea. That's a good one too, that due to Christ's death the emancipation papers of the human race have been signed. Christ actually accomplished something for every human being. That's a beautiful thought as well.

There are many angles presented in Scripture. Boy, another crucial one I missed was reconciliation. The death of Christ reconciles us to God, by destroying the enmity that existed in us before knowing Him (e.g. Col. 1:18-20).

Anyway, all of these elements are helpful to keep in mind in understanding the significance of Christ's life and death.

Two elements I disagree with are:

a.Christ died in order to make it possible for God to forgive us (I'm speaking in a unilateral sense here, not in the sense that we receive forgiveness; e.g. Christ's prayer "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

b.Christ died as a propitiation to appease God's wrath.

Colin.

Quote.
Your first meaning of justification - for everyone - is correct but doesn't confer title to heaven - which requires faith, to produce fitness: global justification is by Christ's act on the cross in saving everyone, whereby each human is given property ownership of Jesus' merits by inheritance, without possessing it - which takes faith on our part. This is the building blocks of grace in the gospel, but it saves before changing the mind of the sinner (see below): when it is known to the sinner it does change the mind into a repentant and trusting attitude.
Unquote.

I disagree with you for your statement is against the Scripture (Romans 2:14,15).
Here Paul stated that those Gentiles who didn’t have the law, who didn’t knew Christ, including those who never new there is God Creator of heaven and earth, who worshiped idols, trees, cows, etc, but have the principle of the law in their hearts, not only they have the title to heaven, they are fit for heaven.

Your statement above “global justification is by Christ's act on the cross in saving everyone, whereby each human is given property ownership of Jesus' merits by inheritance, without possessing it - which takes faith on our part” shows that Christ’ redemption work does not really saves, a man still need faith to him to be saved. When He saved humanity on the cross, you said “not yet, you are not saved yet.” Sorry, I can't hear this.
Christ’ imputed righteousness is for every man, Gentiles and believers, idol worshipper and God worshipper, it doesn’t need faith at all, it is his righteousness imputed to every man that saves, because all men were justified once and for all to live, and to live here means really living without any conditions. The living wicked would sent to hell, the living righteous would go to heaven. And among the righteous people who go to heaven, are all of them Christ’ believers? Who put their faith in Him? No, there are many who didn’t know him, who never knew about him including those idols and trees worshipper. And probably there are among them also who reject Christ because that what was taught to them, but nevertheless they have the principle of heaven in their heart, and that is enough for them to be fit in heaven.
In His love

James S.

James, you need to define what you mean by "saves." Also you could point out what you think "saved" or "saves" mean in Colin's posts. It looks to me like you guys are talking past each other. I agree with Scott that this language is overly-complicated. Really the issue is very simple. We were alienate in our hearts and minds, misunderstanding God. Christ came to show us what God is really like. Eternal life is knowing God, which happens by way of believing Christ's revelation.

The corporate aspect is encompassed in that had Christ not come, the entire human race would have been lost. Because He came, the human race was saved, meaning not that each individual will be saved but the race as a whole was saved from the destruction which would have impacted the entire race had Christ not come. Therefore to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life.

OK, Tom.

For me, humanity was once saved by Christ redemption on the cross. This is salvation in a corporate sense; “as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21). By this act on the cross, humanity was given back their life once robbed by Adam. It doesn’t need faith to have this “life”, for it is life for every one in the real sense. Just as we die not because of our fault, so, we live, not because of our effort.

This life after death is humanity “ticket to heaven”, they are all entitled to enter heaven and live eternally. If every one that rise from the death has the principle of heaven in their hearts, would they not all enter heaven and live eternally? But, the reality is as according to the bible, not all who were resurrected from the 1st death would enter heaven. Many of them died again the 2nd death. Why? Because even they are all entitled to go to heaven, not all have the principle of heaven in their hearts. So, to have the principle of heaven is our Fitness for heaven.

And to have the principle of heaven is not merely by having faith in Christ, otherwise there is no chance for those who never hear about the Gospel and never knew about Christ. But Paul gives a hint in Romans 2:12-15; that there would be many who never hear and knew about the Gospel and Christ would be saved too because they have the principle of heaven in their hearts.

The main issue for to have eternal life in heaven and the new world is to have the principle of heaven in our heart. How we got it is another issue; many through their faith in Christ and many through the work of the Holy Spirit without ever knowing about Christ and his gospel.

But contrary to Colin’s view, salvation is just for those who have faith in Christ, because only these people might have the “imparted righteousness of Christ” which is their Fitness for heaven.

Seems you are also at the same side: “Because He came, the human race was saved, meaning not that each individual will be saved but the race as a whole was saved from the destruction which would have impacted the entire race had Christ not come.”
I think you must clarify this statement.

In His love

James S

James, I wrote this:

Quote:

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The corporate aspect is encompassed in that had Christ not come, the entire human race would have been lost. Because He came, the human race was saved, meaning not that each individual will be saved but the race as a whole was saved from the destruction which would have impacted the entire race had Christ not come. Therefore to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life.

---

This seems quite clear to me. Is there some part of this which you do not understand? I'm not sure what you're wanting me to clarify.

James, I agree with you that there will be people in heaven who never heard the name of Jesus. They responded to the influence of the Holy Spirit in a way that makes it safe for Jesus reward them with eternal life.

TE: The corporate aspect is encompassed in that had Christ not come, the entire human race would have been lost.

MM: True, but the "entire human race" at that point consisted only of Adam and Eve. None of us would have been born.

TE: Therefore to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life.

MM: Amen!

In God's mind, who sees the end from the beginning, the human race consisted of those who would be born of Adam and Eve, not just Adam and Eve. The entire human race was saved, which includes us.

He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God. (1SM 343)