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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74793
08/16/06 01:11 PM
08/16/06 01:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Colin, I've never stated that Christ's death was not necessary for our salvation. I've positive Scott would not agree with this either. Where did you get this idea?
There are many, many texts in Scripture which counter this idea, and Scott and I are both very aware of these. Just to name one:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74794
08/16/06 01:50 PM
08/16/06 01:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Quote.
MYP 35
Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}
Unquote.
I agree with sister EGW writings here, only the question is how you could come to this conclusion?
Quote.
But the faith we exercise to obtain justification does not require good works in order to obtain it. And the faith justified people exercise to experience sanctification is faith that produces good works. The one is our title to heaven and the other is our fitness for heaven.
Unquote.
According to me, what sister EGW said, either against our title to heaven or our fitness for heaven, is about the way we obtain righteousness, not about justification.
I agree with her in the way we obtain righteousness.
The 1st, God made us righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ; a righteousness that saves humanity in the corporate sense, no faith required, no works required, which you are against it. Everybody has their title to heaven; everybody has the same chance to go to heaven, because there is life after death now, our first death is just a sleep, because Christ had risen from the death and everybody will also rise from the death (1 Corinthians 15:21,22). But not all who rise from the death would go to heaven, some of them rise to glory and many of them rise to die the 2nd death.
Sorry, there are wrong bits in your last paragraph, here...see below...
Quote:
The 2nd, those who put their faith in Christ would have a righteousness imparted by the Holy Spirit that works in their hearts to recreate them back in the likeness and image of Christ, which is sanctification. They would show fruit of the Spirit, unselfish love that rules their hearts and lives. They are fit for heaven.
Right, back to the R&H quote at the top, excerpted in MYP. The two sides of righteousness are justification and sanctification - new mind and new life: is that simple enough? The justification and sanctification in that R&H article are "righteousness within...[and]...righteousness without". Check Ellen White's meaning further in her writings, because "imputed" means in each believer by faith, and "imparted" is the life of faith in & through each of us.
Your first meaning of justification - for everyone - is correct but doesn't confer title to heaven - which requires faith, to produce fitness: global justification is by Christ's act on the cross in saving everyone, whereby each human is given property ownership of Jesus' merits by inheritance, without possessing it - which takes faith on our part. This is the building blocks of grace in the gospel, but it saves before changing the mind of the sinner (see below): when it is known to the sinner it does change the mind into a repentant and trusting attitude.
Your point about choice below is good.
Quote:
What is their part in this process? Cooperating with the Spirit? Deny self? Choosing to live for God and not self? Maybe all, maybe not at all?
One thing I am sure, it is about choice, therefore we are created with the freedom to choose, and through this freedom of choice, many choose to lice for self and die and many choose to live for God and live.
But is choice and act or work? Choice is within our heart, we might do nothing but a choice has been taken. And: “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” – Philippians 2:13.
Your last bit below here still needs to distinguish between justification in and by Christ by grace - his own doing for us which is the everlasting salvation he achieved in his person, and justification by Christ in us by his Spirit - his doing in us by grace through faith which is our title to heaven since saving merits are created in us by Christ's Spirit. By the Spirit we then do, as you say, fit ourselves for heaven by performing the will of God expressed in his law and through his Spirit: Christ's judgement knows we are justified by Christ's righteousness created in our minds, but he is working on getting our performance the way he likes it - as we should, too.
Quote:
Thus, what EGW said is only to tell us how we obtain righteousness not justification.
Righteousness we obtain trough the imputed and imparted righteousness of Christ. The 1st is our title to heaven and the 2nd is our fitness for heaven. It is a state or condition of our soul, but subject to justification. And there is a Final justification that is subject to a Judgment trial using the Ten Commandments as a standard of righteousness.
We are judge by our works against the Ten Commandments, but we are justified by our faith in the grace of God.
Thus, the faith we accept Christ and the faith to maintain Christ in our hearts is the same one faith; it is God who works in us to will and to do; and we will have the imparted righteousness of Christ.
In His love
James S.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74795
08/16/06 01:56 PM
08/16/06 01:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Who are you addressing, Colin? (in your last post)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74796
08/16/06 01:56 PM
08/16/06 01:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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But, Tom, is the Son of man being lifted up a saving action on his part or merely a demonstration of love to persuade sinners to believe God is agape? Your position I am not clear on. Since you aren't for the moral influence theory which theory do you agree with? Quote:
Colin, I've never stated that Christ's death was not necessary for our salvation. I've positive Scott would not agree with this either. Where did you get this idea?
There are many, many texts in Scripture which counter this idea, and Scott and I are both very aware of these. Just to name one:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16)
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74797
08/16/06 01:58 PM
08/16/06 01:58 PM
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Quote:
by Collins: I would only add to Scott's piece that justification by faith has everything to do with us, as sanctification has. Agreeing with God begins with what Scott left out: dying to self by grace through faith...since we are dead in Christ by grace - "one died for all; therefore are all dead", we each die in Christ by faith as his Spirit brings him to us, and that is necessary to agree with God, be justified by Christ through his Spirit and be at peace with God.
That is very dark speech, Collins. What exactly does it mean to die to self by grace through faith? It sounds very religious, but what would I tell my VBS kids?
In Christ, scott
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74798
08/16/06 01:58 PM
08/16/06 01:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Colin, BTW, if you look at how EGW uses the terms "imputed" and "imparted" with respect to the righteousness of Christ, with few exceptions, they are interchangeable. That is to say, she uses the terms interchangeably, with few exceptions.
If you do a search on "imputed righteousness" and look at how she uses the phrase, this can be easily seen (again, with few exceptions, such as her statement that the one is fitness and the other title).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74799
08/17/06 10:13 AM
08/17/06 10:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Who are you addressing, Colin? (in your last post)
That was James' post I was responding to... 
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74800
08/17/06 10:19 AM
08/17/06 10:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
by Collins: I would only add to Scott's piece that justification by faith has everything to do with us, as sanctification has. Agreeing with God begins with what Scott left out: dying to self by grace through faith...since we are dead in Christ by grace - "one died for all; therefore are all dead", we each die in Christ by faith as his Spirit brings him to us, and that is necessary to agree with God, be justified by Christ through his Spirit and be at peace with God.
That is very dark speech, Collins. What exactly does it mean to die to self by grace through faith? It sounds very religious, but what would I tell my VBS kids?
In Christ, scott
Change "I will" to "you will", as Jesus himself said in the Garden of Gethsemane: My "will" is given up. Is that simple enough? Of course, "you will" is Jesus' will - God's will, so my own "will" is put to death. How's that?
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74801
08/17/06 10:31 AM
08/17/06 10:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Colin, BTW, if you look at how EGW uses the terms "imputed" and "imparted" with respect to the righteousness of Christ, with few exceptions, they are interchangeable. That is to say, she uses the terms interchangeably, with few exceptions.
If you do a search on "imputed righteousness" and look at how she uses the phrase, this can be easily seen (again, with few exceptions, such as her statement that the one is fitness and the other title).
Granted, the difference between renewal of the mind and transforming the life is very little: attitude and thought and deed, but that difference is fundamental, as indicated in the contrast of title to heaven and fitness for it. Righteousness by faith is justification by faith in attitude (imputed) and action (imparted) - in one whole experience of justification: imputing or imparting it combines in the experience but remains distinct.
They can't be changed in their meaning, only misplaced or misunderstood (very easy!) in the their usage, not so?
What about the death of Christ for salvation and atonement question I posted for you yesterday?
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Re: JUSTIFICATION
#74802
08/17/06 01:49 PM
08/17/06 01:49 PM
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Quote:
by CollinQuote:
by scottQuote:
by Collins: I would only add to Scott's piece that justification by faith has everything to do with us, as sanctification has. Agreeing with God begins with what Scott left out: dying to self by grace through faith...since we are dead in Christ by grace - "one died for all; therefore are all dead", we each die in Christ by faith as his Spirit brings him to us, and that is necessary to agree with God, be justified by Christ through his Spirit and be at peace with God.
That is very dark speech, Collins. What exactly does it mean to die to self by grace through faith? It sounds very religious, but what would I tell my VBS kids?
In Christ, scott
Change "I will" to "you will", as Jesus himself said in the Garden of Gethsemane: My "will" is given up. Is that simple enough? Of course, "you will" is Jesus' will - God's will, so my own "will" is put to death. How's that?
Hi Collin,
So, would I tell my VBS kids that in order to be justified I must not do anything I want to do, but do what God wants me to do? Maybe grit my teeth and resist like Jesus did, maybe sweat a little blood?
In Christ, scott
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