I think our position on the scapegoat is sound, but not the position MM is presenting. Our position is that Satan will receive the consequences for the responsibility he bears. This is from our official website (http://www.adventistinfo.org.uk/about/fundamen.php)

This suggestion has come about from the belief that on the Day of Atonement the Azazel goat had sins laid upon it and was sent into the wilderness. But in no sense is that goat a ‘sin-bearer’. The Day of Atonement is a symbol of the last judgement when Satan, Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire. The most important part of the Day of Atonement was when the Lord’s goat was sacrificed for sin, thus putting things right between God and His people. Only when the atonement was complete (Leviticus 16:16-19) did Azazel enter the picture. I think that the scapegoat was simply an indication that the devil would eventually be faced with the consequences of his action, when sin and sinners will be no more.

The fellow who wrote this, responding to a question posed, is exactly right. The devil will eventually be faced with the consequences of his action. This is a reasonable point of view, and sustainable by Scripture. One thing to bear in mind is that at the time Leviticus was written, there was a common understanding among the Hebrews that Azazel was Satan, which is made clear by contemporary literature, specifically the pseudopigrapha.

TE: For example, you agree with me that the Spirit of Prophecy is making an equivalence between the death of the wicked and the death of Christ. But then you backtrack saying that the death of the wicked is different than the death of Christ because of the flames God uses to torture the wicked with. But this is the very question under consideration! If the SOP is establishing a principle of equivalence between the death of the wicked and the death of Christ, then your view of the death of the wicked comes into question.

MM: I am not backtracking. I believe Jesus was punished and died for the sins of the saved. I do not believe Jesus died the second death. I believe Satan is the one who dies with the sins of the saved and their second death in the lake of fire. I also believe the unsaved wicked pay their own sin debt in the lake of fire – not Satan.

TE: Even using your view of penal substitution, your view doesn't make sense, because if Christ died to pay the legal price of the debt of sin, and the legal price of the debt of sin is the execution of the sinner in flames of fire, then that's the price Christ would have had to pay. That is, Christ would have had to have been tortured in literal flames of fire, just like the wicked will be, or there is no legal basis upon which to forgive the repentent wicked person.

MM: Again, Jesus earned the legal right to own the sin and second death of the entire human race. He accomplished this by suffering the wrath of God on the cross – not in the lake of fire. As lawful owner of all sin and second death it is Jesus’ right and duty to eliminate them in the right way. He will accomplish this by saving all who choose to be saved and by causing Satan to die with their sin and second death in the lake of fire. It is Satan who will die with the sins of the saved and their second death in the lake of fire – not Jesus.

TV: I thought you said that Ellens writings on the subject would be like biblestudies? I see two bible quotes in the text you posted and in both cases it appears that they are there to support the thesis rather than the thesis supporting the bible quotes. Where are the bible study parts you mentioned?

MM: Thomas, please read the context of the quotes I posted. Thank you.

TE: I think our position on the scapegoat is sound, but not the position MM is presenting. Our position is that Satan will receive the consequences for the responsibility he bears.

MM: Tom, how does your position differ from the SOP quotes I posted?

GC 485
The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3}

1. What does "bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit" mean to you?

2. What does "he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked" mean to you?

3. What does "thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment" mean to you?

My position doesn't differ from the SOP quotes you presented, but from your interpretation of those quotes. It differs in that I believe the quote I presented from our official website is correct.

From the website:"The scapegoat was simply an indication that the devil would eventually be faced with the consequences of his action, when sin and sinners will be no more."

If you agree with this statement, then we are in agreement. To the extent you differ from this statement, we disagree.

1. What bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused means is expressed here:

Quote:

---

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

---

As our website says, Satan will suffer the consequences of his actions. He will bear his responsibility for leading others into the sins they have committed, whether believers or unbelievers.

Your interpretation to me is suggesting some arbitrary action on the part of God which only involves believers, rather than a non-arbitrary result which is in consequence to what Satan has done to both believers and unbelievers.

2.This means just what it says. I don't think there's any need for me to comment on this, is there?

3.The purpose of the Great Plan of redemption is to vindicate God's character and remove sin from the universe. Once all creatures have been made aware of the issues and chosen what they want (to live with God in heaven or not), then this purpose is complete.

If you make the death that Christ died on the cross different than the death of the wicked, there are several problems that creates. First of all, it destroys the equivalence of the deaths, which both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy make in many places. That is, the death which Christ experienced is the very same death the wicked will experience. If it were different, it wouldn't make any sense to say "He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His." (DA 24)

Here are some more examples where the Spirit of Prophecy equates the two:

After all that has been done to save them that a God could do, if they show by their lives that they slight Jesus' offered mercy, death will be their portion, and it will be dearly purchased. It will be a dreadful death; for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross to purchase for them redemption, which they have refused. (SP Vol. 4B page 11)

He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. (DA 753)

Why it is important that we understand the two deaths are related? I'll mention two reasons. First of all, it was because Jesus Christ suffered our death that we don't need to. That's from DA24 listed above. "He suffered the death that was ours." Same death. Not a different one.

Secondly, Christ's death made evident what the death which sin causes is like, so that when the wicked are destroyed that act will not be confused for an arbitrary act of power on the part of God.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. ...By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. (DA 764)

Note that the death of Christ makes it evident that the death which the wicked experience is the "inevitable result of sin." This would not be possible if the death of Christ was unrelated to the death of the wicked. Her statement would not make any sense in this case.

Finally note the following quote:

Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. (GC 539)

Note that those who refuse the atonement will bear in their own person the guilt and punishment of transgression.

The equivalence here is clear.
1.Christ bore the guilt of transgression.
2.This was necessary for us to be freed from the pentalty of sin (which is what Christ experienced).
3.Those who refuse the atonement must receive the penalty themselves.
4.They will bear in their own person the guilt and punishment of transgression.

It is very clear that Christ experienced the same death the wicked will experience. Otherwise these statements don't make sense. You destroy all the logic of her argument if you disassociate the two deaths.

The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. (God's Amazing Grace 168)

The character of the retribution of sin is made clear by Christ's death!

Every sacrifice pointed to Him as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, that all might understand that the wages of sin is death. (1SM 114)

The wages of sin is the second death. Christ died that we might understand this. If the death Christ experienced is not the second death, how does His death help us to understand this truth?

TE: You destroy all the logic of her argument if you disassociate the two deaths.

MM: The only one saying it is you. I’m not. Jesus conquered sin and death on the cross. The wicked will not. Jesus’ life and death is salvific. The wicked’s is not. Jesus voluntarily laid down His own life. The wicked will not. Jesus took up His life again. The wicked will not. Jesus did not die in a lake of fire. The wicked will. These are but a few examples of how Jesus’ life and death is not at all like the life and death of the wicked.

TE: The wages of sin is the second death. Christ died that we might understand this. If the death Christ experienced is not the second death, how does His death help us to understand this truth?

MM: It is obvious that Jesus did not die the second death. For one there is no resurrection after the second death. Plus, the second death takes place in the lake of fire. Jesus voluntarily laid down His life. No one took His life. He didn’t because something robbed Him of life. He laid it down Himself. He ended His own life. He didn’t die in the same way the wicked will die. It is the scapegoat, Satan, who will die with our sin and second death in the lake of fire.

DA 758
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. {DA 758.1}

In the following quote, and all throughout the SOP, Sister White makes it clear that Satan suffers while paying the penalty for the sins of the saved, that is, the sins that the saved themselves committed. You seem to be suggesting that Satan will not pay the full and final penalty for the sins that the saved committed. I hear you saying that Satan will only pay for the sin of tempting the saved to commit the sins they committed.

GC 422
It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. {GC 422.2}

Regarding the death of the wicked being like the death of Christ, you didn't address any of my arguments. I would like to see you meet them. I produced quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy showing the equivalence, and explained why the equivalence was necessary. You didn't address any of these issues. You just repeated what you had already said before. Please address the points I made.

Regarding the scapegoat, the EW quote says:

Quote:

---

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

---

As I wrote before:

Quote:

---

As our website says, Satan will suffer the consequences of his actions. He will bear his responsibility for leading others into the sins they have committed, whether believers or unbelievers.

Your interpretation to me is suggesting some arbitrary action on the part of God which only involves believers, rather than a non-arbitrary result which is in consequence to what Satan has done to both believers and unbelievers.

---

For your convenience, from our website:

The scapegoat was simply an indication that the devil would eventually be faced with the consequences of his action, when sin and sinners will be no more.

I agree with this.

TE: I produced quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy showing the equivalence, and explained why the equivalence was necessary. You didn't address any of these issues.

MM: Again, the only comparison we can make between Jesus’ death and the death of the wicked is that they will suffer a similar soul anguish when they are made to bear their own guilt. Everything else is different. I listed them above.

You seem to be suggesting that Satan will not pay the full and final penalty for the sins that the saved committed. I hear you saying that Satan will only pay for the sin of tempting the saved to commit the sins they committed. Did I read you right?

If so, then how do you explain what Jesus experienced when the sins of the world were placed upon Him?

MM, for your convenience, I will repeat the arguments. I would appreciate it if you would consider them point by point. Well, you can skip the first point, because I already know what you would say regarding it. But I don't know your thoughts on points 2-4, and I'm interested in knowing what they are.

Thank you.

1.The death is in essence the same in terms of how it happens. The wicked die a "dreadful death," experiencing the agony Christ experienced. Christ will experience the agony the wicked will experience. The Spirit of Prophecy says it both ways:Christ's death is like what the death of the wicked will be; The wicked's death will be like Christ's was.

2.We are told that Christ suffered the death that was ours that we might live the life that was His. This is only possible is He suffered the death that was ours.

3.The angels only became aware the death is not due to an arbitrary act of power on the part of God when Christ died. It was Christ's death which revealed the "inevitable result of sin." Therefore the death which Christ experienced must be such that it revealed what the inevitable result of sin will be. In other words, the wicked will die like Christ did, and when the angels see it, they will no longer be confused, because they saw Christ's death.

4.Those who refuse to partake of the atonement will bear in their own body the guilt and punishment of sin. This is exactly what Christ did. The punishment for sin does not change. It's not one thing for Christ and another for someone else. If that were the case, it wouldn't be true that Christ suffered the punishment of sin.