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Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76625
07/05/06 05:07 AM
07/05/06 05:07 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
The law was given with the main purpose to justify God’s judgment against sinners. That is what I am sure. So, it is just indeed a set of rules: Do it and live
But because no man could keep the law perfectly thought their obedience, the law now points out their incapability; their sins.

The law is a revelation of the character of the law Giver, God couldn’t lower down his standards of righteousness and holiness to meet fallen man capability in keeping the law in order they might be justified by the law in exchange of life, therefore, God knew that all men would come under condemnation of the law to die for their sins, which justifies him to abolish sin and sinners forever from his universe one day.

In this way he might justify men by his grace without the deeds of the law through Christ redemption work, those who knew him and have faith in him and those who never hear of him.

In His love

James S

Last edited by James Saptenno; 07/05/06 05:09 AM.
Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76626
07/05/06 12:35 PM
07/05/06 12:35 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Was the law ordained to life, or to death?

If the law was given for the purpose of justifying God in killing those who disobey it, then how can God justly kill those who didn't keep it before it was given?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76627
07/05/06 02:39 PM
07/05/06 02:39 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
Was the law ordained to life, or to death?

If the law was given for the purpose of justifying God in killing those who disobey it, then how can God justly kill those who didn't keep it before it was given?
Unquote.

Was the law ordained to life, or to death?

Romans 7:10 – And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

If the law was given for the purpose of justifying God in killing those who disobey it, then how can God justly kill those who didn't keep it before it was given?

Romans 5:13 – For until the law, sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 4:15 – For where no law is, there is no transgression.

Before Sinai, sin did exist but if the Law was never given to men, sin of humanity could not be imputed because if there is no law there is no transgression (what does it transgress??). But death reigned since Adam, if God didn’t give his law, men did not deserve to die because death is the wages of sin.

So, once the law was given, humanity came under its jurisdiction, their sins is imputed, since Adam till the last born in earth history and God is just to abolish sin and sinners.

In His love

James S.

Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76628
07/05/06 03:21 PM
07/05/06 03:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, it's difficult for me to comprehend your postion on sin and law and the death penalty. Do you agree with Sister White's insights regarding the eternal nature of God's law and kingdom and character?

By the way, I agree with the idea that the law is what justifies justice (the death penalty), but it also establishes mercy. Without the law, neither one could exist independent of arbitrary rule. That is, without God making it up.

Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76629
07/05/06 08:58 PM
07/05/06 08:58 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
According to the theory being presented here, God could not justly condemn the wicked who lived before the law was given, because the law, according to this theory, hadn't been given yet. God could not after the fact condemnt those who disobeyed the law for something they knew nothing about. That would be the height of injustice. The giving of the law, in this case, would not establish the justice of God, but do the reverse. May it never be!

You responded to my question of whether the law was ordained to life or death with a quote from Paul, establishing that the law was ordained to life, which was my point. The purpose of the law was for us to obtain life, not death. It was ordained to life. Paul found it to be death to him, not because of the law, or God, but because of sin.

Paul explains this just after the part you quoted (vs. 13):

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The law was not made death to Paul, but sin. The problem is not the law, not God, but sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76630
07/09/06 02:51 AM
07/09/06 02:51 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
According to the theory being presented here, God could not justly condemn the wicked who lived before the law was given, because the law, according to this theory, hadn't been given yet. God could not after the fact condemnt those who disobeyed the law for something they knew nothing about. That would be the height of injustice. The giving of the law, in this case, would not establish the justice of God, but do the reverse. May it never be!
Unquote.

The giving of the law, in this case, would not establish the justice of God, but do the reverse. May it never be!

Is God just when he wipes out the entire Antediluvian world leaving out Noah family? What makes he just?
Is God just when he brought fire from heaven and burned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah? What makes he just?
Is God just when he executed the death upon the first born of Egypt families? Hat makes he just?

The Scripture clearly said that if there is NO Law, sin IS NOT imputed.
The Scripture clearly said that if there is no law there is no transgression.

Was there a Law since Adam till Sinai?
Very naïve to say yes, the Scripture said there was no law till Sinai.

How could God execute judgment using death if there is no Law? That is INJUSTICE.

So, it is correct that the Law was given to JUSTIFY God’s judgment.

In His love

James S

Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76631
07/09/06 02:52 AM
07/09/06 02:52 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
You responded to my question of whether the law was ordained to life or death with a quote from Paul, establishing that the law was ordained to life, which was my point. The purpose of the law was for us to obtain life, not death. It was ordained to life. Paul found it to be death to him, not because of the law, or God, but because of sin.

Paul explains this just after the part you quoted (vs. 13):

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The law was not made death to Paul, but sin. The problem is not the law, not God, but sin.
Unquote.

The Law was ordained to life, it was given to men (Israel) in order they might seek life through their obedience as according to Leviticus 18:4,5.

God knew that no man except The Son of Man might be justified by the law and rewarded with life, but still give it to men? Why? What is the purpose to give a law to man but no man might keep it perfectly to obtain righteousness that brought life?

Is it to points out their sins or is it to justify them to live eternally as a reward for their perfect righteousness in obeying the law?

It is to justify men to live by keeping the law perfectly. That is the purpose of the law given, which has justified Christ to live and thus justify him to be our sin redeemer.

Pointing sins out and condemn men because of their sins is the indirect result of the presence of the Law. The Law shows men failures to keep the law perfectly because of their inability, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and thus, if not justifying the law would condemn, and the condemnation is death as the wages of their sins.

I agree with you that the problem is sin and not the law. The law only condemns sinners with death and thus justifies God to abolish sin and sinners with death as a means, because he is the Law Giver.

In His Love

James S.

Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76632
07/09/06 02:57 AM
07/09/06 02:57 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
James, it's difficult for me to comprehend your position on sin and law and the death penalty. Do you agree with Sister White's insights regarding the eternal nature of God's law and kingdom and character?

By the way, I agree with the idea that the law is what justifies justice (the death penalty), but it also establishes mercy. Without the law, neither one could exist independent of arbitrary rule. That is, without God making it up.
Unquote.

Maybe through my replies to Tom above you come to know better.

But BTW, could you explain in brief what is “Sister White's insights regarding the eternal nature of God's law and kingdom and character?”

In His love

James S

Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76633
07/09/06 02:43 PM
07/09/06 02:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

So my question is, do you mean that your statement "the law is just a set of rules" should be taken in some other way than a straight forward meaning of this phrase would indicate? What about the context would change the way this phrase should be taken?




It’s clear from the context that I didn’t say this in a pejorative sense. What I meant was: “By saying that rules are arbitrary you are saying that the law of God is arbitrary, for the law of God is precisely a set of rules.” I had made clear that “rules are just the expression of principles in a way that can be better understood by creatures”. And had already said that “the ten commandments are love”. So the conclusions extracted from my comment are unwarranted. I didn’t mean a set of rules which could be legalistically obeyed. I meant rules as the expression of a principle – love. Ellen White makes abundantly clear that the ten commandments are rules. And of course they aren’t arbitrary.

Re: Is the Law of God just a set of rules? #76634
07/09/06 04:53 PM
07/09/06 04:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
JP: But BTW, could you explain in brief what is “Sister White's insights regarding the eternal nature of God's law and kingdom and character?”

MM: All three are based on God's timelessness. The principles of God's law are as eternal as He is. Thus, the law was not created. Instead, it has always been. In other words, He didn't have to make it up in order to execute judgment or offer mercy.

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