Thank you, Mogens. What an excellent collection of SOP statements. At this time, I believe sanctification is a process, or a way of life. I don't believe it is a destination. I do believe it is a requirement of salvation, but it is motivated, instigated and achieved by a Power outside of ourselves. We maintain the connection with God, and obey the promptings of the Spirit, and God enables.
AND SOMETIMES WE GET IT WRONG. Growth comes as we learn to recognise the Lord's voice, and learn how to constantly remain with Him in all our thoughts and activities.
Any other thoughts?

I read this today, and think it might be relevant:

"
Men whom God favored, and to whom He entrusted great
responsibilities, were sometimes overcome by temptation and
committed sin, even as we at the present day strive, waver, and
frequently fall into error. Their lives, with all their faults
and follies, are open before us, both for our encouragement and
warning. If they had been represented as without fault, we, with
our sinful nature, might despair at our own mistakes and
failures. But seeing where others struggled through
discouragements like our own, where they fell under temptation
as we have done, and yet took heart again and conquered through
the grace of God, we are encouraged in our striving after
righteousness. As they, though sometimes beaten back, recovered
their ground, and were blessed of God, so we too may be
overcomers in the strength of Jesus.

The life of Christ's disciples is to be like His, a series of
uninterrupted victories, not seen to be such here, but
recognized as such in the great hereafter."

From God's Amazing Grace

I didn't realize this site was still active. Sorry about that. After reading the past posts I get the feeling some of you are having a hard time appreciating my thoughts on moral perfection. Perhaps I should summarize my thoughts at this point.

1. Moral perfection, which is the same thing as the mind of the new man, is a gift we receive the moment we crucify our old man habits of sin.

2. It's a gift we receive, not something we achieve over a lifetime of sinning and repenting.

3. We are born again morally complete or perfect. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

4. The gift of the new man comes complete with all the holy attributes of God and with all the fruit of the Spirit.

5. We are not born again morally mature. We begin as babes in Christ. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we grow in grace and mature morally.

6. There is no such thing as an unknown moral defect of character for a Spirit-filled, Bible-believing Christian. No truly born again believer can unwittingly be impatient, rude, unfair, etc., without realizing it.

7. No truly converted Christian will boast of sinlessness. His eyes are on Jesus and not self.

8. The closer we come to Jesus the more fully we realize the hideous nature of sin does not mean that we are guilty of unknown moral defects of character.

Would anybody like to address these points? Do you agree or disagree? And why?

Please, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that a born again believer cannot choose to sin against God once he has been converted.

But I am definitely saying that a converted Christian who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man "doth not" and "cannot" knowingly sin against God - so long as he is in the Spirit. See Gal 5:16 and 1 John 3:9.

In order to sin, however, a born again believer must resurrect the mind of the old man, because sin happens in the mind of the old man and not in the mind of the new man. And we always have the option available to us to revert back to the mind of the old man.

The growth we experience while walking in the mind of the new man doesn't have anything to do with sin or moral defects of character (all that was taken care of when we crucified the old man before we received the gift of the sinless seed of the mind of the new man).

So long as we remain in the Spirit and mind of the new man, after we're born again, the growth we experience has to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit, just like Jesus' growth from childhood to manhood. Just as His development did not involve sin, so it is with those who have the mind of the new man and walk therein.

Of course we will have to maintain a constant warfare against the clamorings of our sinful flesh nature, but these unholy desires (communicated as conscious thoughts and feelings) do not represent unknown or hitherto unconquered moral defects of character.

All our moral defects of character were crucified before we experienced rebirth and received the sinless seed of the new man mind. Thus, the growth we enjoy after we've been born again, and are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, involves maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. It's no different than Jesus' experience as He grew in grace and matured in the fruit of the Spirit.

Does this make sense to anyone else besides myself?

That which Paul calls the "law of sin" in Romans is here called the "stony heart." In Romans chapter seven it is pictured as dwelling in the flesh, while here the promise is that it will be evicted from the flesh. It will be taken out of and away from. When it is taken out of and away from, the flesh is still there, for the flesh itself is not taken out of and away from him, but something is taken out of and away from the flesh. This must make it very clear that there are the three entities. There is the mind, there is the flesh, and there is the law of sin or the stony heart which dwells in the flesh and rules over it according to its will and against the will of the mind.
In Romans 8:7, this same third entity is referred to as the carnal mind in these words: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
This text is probably one of the strongest proofs that there is this third entity in the individual. Consider very carefully what is said in this verse which cannot in turn apply to the fleshly or the human nature. In the first instance, while it is entirely possible for the sinful, fallen flesh of man to be an instrument of righteousness by being subject to the law of God, it is impossible for the carnal mind to do this.
The carnal mind is not merely at enmity against God. It is enmity. Its very constitution, its very nature, that which it is, is in itself enmity against God. If it were merely at enmity then it could be reconciled to God, but when it is itself the enmity, then it can never be reconciled to God, it can never be subject to the law of God. This is an impossibility.
But the flesh can. In fact, in Romans6:13, Paul calls upon the converted person to yield "your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."
So, we have one nature or power in the human being which is at enmity and cannot serve God, and we have another power, namely, the flesh, which can. Therefore, they cannot be one and the same thing. They must be two different things, for the one thing could not be in a position where it was impossible to serve the law, and at the same time be yielded as instruments of service to the law. This is impossible.
The carnal mind is the law of sin, the stony heart and the power of sin which rules in the life of the individual against the will of the mind. It is not that the flesh is the master of the mind. Rather, the flesh is subject to another power which it finds itself forced to obey whilever that power remains in control.
Paul sums the whole problem up very beautifully in the closing verse of Romans seven when he says, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Thus it is clear that there are two masters working in the life of the man of Romans seven. One is the great Master of all truth to which the mind is devoted in service, the other is the law of sin to which the flesh is enslaved. Thus the mind and the flesh are in service to two different powers, and it is for this reason that the flesh does not do that which the mind directs it to do. It is in subjection to another master, despotic and in deadly enmity to the law of God.
We have now come to the heart of the problem of which what we do is but the fruit. It is exactly as Jesus says: "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of his heart the mouth speaketh." Luke 6:43-45.
Here, Christ's reference is to a law of nature which has never been broken and with which even a child is familiar. It is an utterly reliable principle. It is that if you wish to have good fruit you must first of all have good trees. Then, having referred the mind to the familiar and long-proven principle as it is revealed in nature, the Saviour declares that as it is in nature so it is in the spiritual world. The same principle is to be found there. Therefore, if we wish to have a life filled with good deeds, then first of all we must be good people.
But no one can be a good person while he still has the carnal mind or the stony heart. To have that evil nature and power within us is to be an evil person, and as such to bring forth evil and not good fruit.
This, then, is the problem. It is not the mind for it is converted to the service of God and to the truths of the Word of God. It is not the fleshly human nature, for it is in bondage to another power, even the power of the law of- sin which is resident in the members and controls them against the will.
This is not to say that the mind and the flesh cannot be a problem. They can, but they are not the problem once the person has been brought to the Romans seven experience. He has come there because he has seen the beauty of the truth and is converted to it. His flesh is not the problem for it is in bondage to another power, so that until it is delivered from that power it cannot possibly escape from the dominion of sin and do that which the mind directs it to do.
The law of sin in the members is the problem. It is the root, the basic cause, the underlying source of the trouble. If it is the problem, then obviously it is here that the solution must be applied.

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Isaiah 35:4 Say to them of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God...

What did he say? Ha! Ikan, let me see if I understood what you just wrote. I thought I heard you say our fallen flesh nature is incurably sinful, but that the mind of the new man is devoted to serving God. And that we can use our "members" or body to glorify God inspite of the sinful propensities of our fallen flesh nature. And that these are three entities - 1) fallen flesh nature, 2) new man mind, and our 3) body.

By the way, did you intend to post your thoughts here or in the Romans 7 thread? If here, then how do your thoughts apply to the question of moral perfection? I hope I don't sound too confused.

1. What is perfection?

2. What is moral perfection?

3. Is moral perfection imputed (forensic, judicial) or imparted (intrinsic, experiential)?

4. Is moral perfection a gift we receive the moment we're born again, or something we achieve after years of sinning and repenting?

5. Can a genuinely born again Christian, a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled person, someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, unwittingly commit a moral sin without realizing it?

6. Which of the moral sins listed in Rom 1:18-32, Gal 5:19-21 and 2 Tim 3:1-7 is a sin which a born again believer can commit without realizing it?

7. When is Rom 6:1-23; Gal 5:16; 1 Peter 4:1,2; 2 Peter 1:3-10 and 1 John 3:9 a reality in the life of a Christian?

Mike,

I have many opinions, but unfortunatly they are not words of creation that setup and order reality. they are just opinions.

I will take my own medicine & put deuteronomy 29:29 to use.

I will systematically attempt to locate Inspiration's answers to the questions. However if i find that the question might need rewording I will rephrase it & go from there ?

Do you have specific reasons for these specific questions ? E-mail me & let me know, it might have a bearing upon the questions themselves .

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Edward F Sutton

Edward,

Just trying to be thorough in our approach to this study since it seems that most people who have been posting in this and similar threads are not comfortable with the ideas I've been suggesting on moral perfection and conversion.

Many Bible and EGW quotes have been shared, but very little has been said along the lines of what they mean to us personally in light of the study question. Without personal commentary each person seems to assume the quotations support their unstated understanding of the subject.

All this has left a void, at least from my perpective, in the overall study format. It would be helpful to me if each person could take the time to share what they think the quotations mean, rather than assuming it is obvious.

So, that's what I'm getting at with the specific questions. Hopefully we can come to a place in this thread what inspiration would have us believe about moral perfection and related topics.

My response to this question is found under my thread entitled "The Day of Atonement--Wonderful News." The answer is found in the sanctuary and it is indeed wonderful news!