Edward, thanx for those awesome quotes. It's truly amazing what befell Satan, and what befalls us if we are not constantly connected to Jesus, our sweet Saviour.

Zyph, you ask another good question. As I see it, there is a growth in behaviour after we have crucified our old man life of sin and have been born again. But post-conversion growth does not involve becoming less and less sinful. Rather we imitate the example of Jesus as He grew in grace and matured in the fruit of the Spirit.

The only time we deal with sin after we have been born again is when we slip back into the mind of the old man and sin. But slipping in and out of the mind of the old is not part of our growth process. That is, growth in grace doesn't involve gradually overcoming sinful traits of character by sinning and repenting less and less often until someday in future we finally cease to sin.

We are growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit (i.e., experiencing changes in our behaviour from "glory to glory" rather than from less sin to less sin) so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. When we are in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are following in the example of Jesus as He grew from childhood to manhood.

The change in behaviour we experience has to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit - becoming more and more loving, kind, patient, etc., - like a light that shines brighter and brighter until the glorious return of Jesus. See Prov 4:18. We start off like candle light. Our goal is to shine like sunlight. Fortunately eternity isn't long enough to exhaust opportunities to grow more and more like our lovely Jesus, to shine brighter for Him each day.

This growth I'm talking about has nothing to do with sin and has everything to do with imitating Jesus' example of growth and development. This growth is not measured in terms of sinfulness, but in depth and degree of righteousness. Just as there are levels of sin so there are levels of righteousness. Just as Jesus' level of righteousness is more mature and more developed than our Spirit empowered experience, so to sunlight is brighter than candle light. Both, however, are forms of light.

For example, Jesus' capacity to experience joy and sadness can be compared to the difference between sunlight and candle light as it relates to our capacity to experience joy and sadness. This difference, however, is not measured in terms of sinfulness, but rather in depth and degree of righteousness. And as we grow more and more like Jesus our capacity to experience the fruit of the Spirit increases proportionately.

This growth and maturation is only possible during those times we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. If and when we slip back into the mind of the old man we are not at that moment in time and space experiencing imitating the example of Jesus. We resume growing in grace like Jesus did when God restores us back to the mind of the new man.

Does that make sense?

If we die before we have overcome all sin, in spite of the fact that we have decided to follow God, are we saved? I'd like a definitive text. Also, if God doesn't hear prayer unless we're perfect, how can we possibly enlist His aid? I still don't understand how we can wash the inside of the cup without His total control.

As I understand it, whether or not we are saved after we die, that is, if we will be part of the first resurrection, depends on what our attitude toward sin was at the time of our death. If we are clinging to some pet defect of character and refusing to give it up for Jesus then we are in a lost state of mind. See Heb 6:4-6 and 10:26,27.

But if it is in our heart, our deepest desire, to be delivered from all our defects of character, if we are unwilling to retain anything that separates us from Jesus, then we are in a saved state of mind. See 1 John 1:9 and 2:1,2.

Can we be in a saved state of mind and still be a victim of unconquered defects of character? In other words, can we practice known vices while at the same time wishing we weren't and also be in a saved state of mind? This a tuff question, and the answer may seem even harder. Here's what Sister wrote about it:

"Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians." SC 47,48.

Apparently victory over sin is available to those who are willing to surrender all to Jesus, to choose to follow Him. The inability to live without sin is a sign that that person has not surrendered all to Jesus, and is not choosing to allow the Holy Spirit to empower them to "go and sin no more." We must not rob ourselves of the power of God by making up excuses for our shortcomings. Excusing sin is a sin. We must rely upon the promises of God and not the excuses of man.

If human weakness was an excuse for not living without sin then everything the Bible promises is a lie. The truth is, victory is not something we "achieve" through long stern battles with self. Rather, victory is something we "receive" as a gift from God when we surrender ourselves to the influence and power of the Holy Spirit.

The battle against self is fought by keeping our eyes on Jesus and not by trying to avoid sin. If our focus is not to sin then not sinning is our God. But if our focus is Jesus then our God is Jesus. And we will not sin due to the abiding presence of God's Spirit in our hearts and minds.

Is that how you see it?

"Selected Messages Book 1, page 343, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Christ Our High Priest
Let no one take the limited, narrow position that any of the works of man can help in the least possible way to liquidate the debt of his transgression. This is a fatal deception. If you would understand it, you must cease haggling over your pet ideas, and with humble hearts survey the atonement. This matter is so dimly comprehended that thousands upon thousands claiming to be sons of God are children of the wicked one, because they will depend on their own works. God always demanded good works, the law demands it, but because man placed himself in sin where his good works were valueless, Jesus' righteousness alone can avail. Christ is able to save to the uttermost because He ever liveth to make intercession for us.

**All that man can possibly do toward his own salvation is to accept the invitation, "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).**

No sin can be committed by man for which satisfaction has not been met on Calvary. Thus the cross, in earnest appeals, continually proffers to the sinner a thorough expiation."

Does this mean that even converted people - who are sinners, after all - also have access to a thorough expiation?

Personally, I believe thorough and complete expiation (forensically and intrinsically) is available to everyone the exact moment they experience the miracle of rebirth and begin in the Spirit walking in the mind of the new man.

What about you?

PULLING PIGWEEDS

RH.1892-07-26.004
Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed. This was the spirit cherished among us forty years ago. We would come together burdened in soul, praying that we might be one in faith and doctrine; for we knew that Christ is not divided. One point at a time was made the subject of investigation.

Quote by Mike, page one (I think), "the death of Jesus did not eliminate our sinful flesh nature. But it does empower us to crucify our sinful character - the old man.

Mike

I have just finished reading through all three pages of this thread. I have found all of the comments interesting.

The above quote seems to be jumping out at me, in the midst of it all. I want to ask a few questions, plus comment, if I may?

1) How can we crucify our self? Crucifixion requires that someone else drives in the nails. We could never do it on our own.???
2) Is your above quote referring to “justification,” or to “sanctification,” as it relates to “crucify our sinful character?
3) What would be the noticeable difference between a person having one or the other above understanding (1&2) of “crucify our sinful character?”
4) How would “crucify our sinful character,” be related to Galatians 5:16?

“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

“Flesh” meaning “ human nature, the earthly, mortal nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God .”

What is the only thing that can possibly oppose these desires of “the flesh?”

I am going to briefly, but very personally share what your quote, and Galations 5:16 means to me…there is already lots of “theology,” here, but what I have in mind may be termed as sagacious contemplation, complete with anecdotal “evidence,” of this Bible subject, moral perfection.

When I was a kid, we grew up really poor – 10 kids in a two bedroom house. As soon as we were old enough, we had to go out every day and weed the garden. So far, this sounds OK – except for the fact that the “garden,” was 9 acres. We had no equipment but hand tools. You would be surprised at how well we did! In fact, one time, I caught two wild rabbits in the carrot patch! I enjoyed them as pets for some time – but for the most part, this was such a miserable job – especially in the humid climate of Southern Ontario, at the time. One thing that grew really well, compared to other foods, was something called “Pig Weeds.” Atleast, that’s what we called them. Time after time after time, we would growl about those infernal pig weeds – they were the toughest to get out of all the others. But, being the human roto tiller I was back then – we did keep ahead of them, somehow.

The absolute worst case scenario, which we could never do anything about, was when it rained. I remember many times, standing over the field, looking proudly at the weedless patch I had just accomplished…when suddenly, the sky would cloud over, and rain would begin to pour. We would jump for joy because NO MORE WEEDING!

The tragedy would always hit home the next morning…running out to the garden to pick some of the food – I would see all these hundreds of little, new pig weeds popping up from the refreshing of the rain – in just one night they appeared! Like majik! How my heart would drop, as I contemplated the now even bigger task before me…”How do those things appear so fast!!!” I kept saying…

I managed to escape the weed patch, by getting into the rock & roll lifestyle and leaving home….no more pigweeds for years!

But one, really lonely day; I turned to God in desperation, seeking some sense of belonging; and meaning in my life…I had no one to really love or that would love me…I only had friends, if I had money for booze and drugs.

It so happened that the person who introduced me to Jesus was a Seventh Day Adventist dentist. So that is the church I had been baptized in, as I initially gave my heart to Jesus….But you know…I find myself in another 9 acre garden…the garden of “justification and sanctification,” and being perfect “even as our Father in heaven is perfect.”

At first, church was really a novelty…Wow! Friends! People to hang around with, without partying! But soon, a dilema developed in the church garden. I began to notice that my sins were like the pigweeds…As soon as I got rid of one – several more would spring up to take it’s place. I only had friends if I puled enough of the right "pigweeds." But the worst of it was whenever I didn’t pick one of the pigweeds fast enough – before someone else in the church found it too; well – it was goodbye to that friend. I remember one time how one of my new “friends” even nailed a page of SOP to my front door one sabbath evening while I was at a prayer meeting. It was about “proper dress at church”…He didn’t like my bright red pants that I wore..

A new pigweed had just sprung up…in my beautiful church garden…How would the person ever know that those red pants were the very best outfit that I owned, and that I wore them, because I had read what Ellen White said about proper dress at church - how we need to have one special “suit” to wear on Sabbath.

It has been one pig weed after the next, church members “faithfully” and diligently pointing out the ones I should pick right away..and this old boy is tired of picking them…I can’t keep up! Can you Mike? Sometimes, it’s like I am cornered in my own church…too many pig weeds..they are choking out the fruits of the spirit…and I believe that it is because there is such gross misunderstanding about this subject of “When Do We Become Perfect?

I have to say that I really love Jesus..I think of Him just now…approaching the Garden of Gesthemane…I watched a movie about Jesus tonight with my wife and children when it came to this Garden scene; I have to admit – there were tears in the eye; and felt an impulse to hide it; (I am a ‘tough guy,’ and I don’t cry), but when I saw Him, in His poignant sufferings – it brings up such strong thoughts and feelings…the Son of God – agonizing struggle and gruelling torture; so loving – but so intensely hated. He cared so much and loved us so much – can you picture what Jesus went through in His Garden? The last weed that He had to pull, was the final accusations of Satan; and it was in this Garden of toil that Jesus won the battle…

I am playing a song “I Come To The Garden Alone,” as I write – it tells me that I need to come to the Garden of prayer in my heart; and worry about the “pigweeds” only while I am in this Garden , and that my garden, including the pig weeds, is holy ground – because Jesus is present, as He was in His Gesthemane. (Heb.13:5). And it is going into this garden – my Gesthemane – where I take these pigweeds – and exchange them for fruits of the Spirit, that provides me with a positive church experience. I can go with a clear conscience, which enables me to find someone else to bless and strengthen in their Christian walk, because I have been strengthened, and no matter how many times I go to the garden alone, I can come out saying: “I love the Lord because He has heard my voice.” (Ps.116:1). “…I was brought low, and he helped me. (vs.6). According to Rev.12:11, this is how we overcome the “pigweeds!”

I wish to comment on another quote by you Mike:

Quote by Mike, page three: “Christians who struggle with wondering if they have ever been born again need only ask themselves - Am I clinging to any known moral defect of character? Am I making excuses for my failures, or am I claiming the promises of God? Am I consumed with my failures, or am I keeping my eyes on Jesus?”

There is a gross misunderstanding of this whole topic. Either a person doesn’t care, or they are like me – feverishly pulling out the pig weeds, only to be discouraged by the next rain fall. Many seem adamant about rudely enforcing their brands of “gardening,” and they don’t hesitate to point out what they see. Some of them even call themselves “watchmen.”

8T.083.004
The time spent in criticizing the motives and works of Christ's servants might better be spent in prayer. Often if those who find fault knew the truth in regard to those with whom they find fault, they would have an altogether different opinion of them. How much better it would be if, instead of criticizing and condemning others, everyone would say: "I must work out my own salvation. If I co-operate with Him who desires to save my soul, I must watch myself diligently. I must cut away every evil from my life. I must become a new creature in Christ. I must overcome every fault. Then, instead of weakening those who are striving against evil, I can strengthen them by encouraging words."

We can’t just shut ourselves down – because of other people and their actions…but, life is indeed a garden, and we should “dig it.” Sometimes, there are “grey areas, where we are really the only ones who should be qualified to say why we are doing or not doing something. I have great respect now for some who call themselves “watchmen.” I have been quite blessed by some…You can see that they are genuinely called by God; but I am talking more about how we police one another’s daily behavior through negative filters that give the message “you are not saved,” if you missed this or that pigweed.

9T.193.002
Our hard hearts need to be broken. We need to come together in perfect unity, and we need to realize that we are the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Let each one say: "He gave His life for me, and He wants me, as I go through this world, to reveal the love that He revealed in giving Himself for me." Christ bore our sins in His own body on the cross, that God might be just and yet the justifier of those who believe in Him. There is life, eternal life, for all who will surrender to Christ.

We need to go to the “garden” alone; and then “we need to come together in perfect unity, and we need to realize that we are the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.” This should take care of the “perfection problem.”

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited November 24, 2001).]

David, thank you for that heartwarming testimony. It brought tears to my eyes, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. In fact, I cherish those tears, because there was a time when they wouldn't flow, and those are times I'm glad are behind me.

I appreciate the amount of energy you are devoting to this subject. It seems that most of the usual contributors have stopped posting their comments. And I can't help but wondering if they have given up on me, and have concluded that I am too deluded for help. I'm probably wrong, but I am tempted to feel that way. So thank you for sticking it out with me.

1) How can we crucify our self? Crucifixion requires that someone else drives in the nails. We could never do it on our own.???

I agree. I guess I made the mistake of taking for granted that we can only rid ourselves of this and that moral imperfection as we cooperate with the influence and power of the Holy Spirit.

But I also think it's important to make a distinction between those who leave off moral defects of character through unaided human will power, and those who do it by cooperating with the Holy Spirit.

Also I believe we should be careful to draw a line between those who experience victories over certain character defects but cling to one or more pet darling imperfection, and those who are unwilling to allow even one sin to separate then from fully cooperating with the Holy Spirit.

As long as we know in our hearts that we're not selfishly holding on to some darling sin, which is not the same thing as unintentionally falling into sin, we can be sure we are right with Jesus, and that we have nothing to fear for our eternal reward.

2) Is your above quote referring to “justification,” or to “sanctification,” as it relates to “crucify our sinful character?

As I see it, justification accommodates crucifying our old man defects of character. It's a process that, depending on the person, may take many months to many years, and unfortunately quite a few never do come to the place where they completely crucify that one last favorite sin.

Jesus cannot legally, in light of the great controversy and Satan's accusations, justify forgiving someone who cherishes known moral defects of character. It doesn't matter that they have given up a host of other sins if they are clinging to that one pet sin.

3) What would be the noticeable difference between a person having one or the other above understanding (1&2) of “crucify our sinful character?”

Great question. Even Jesus failed to impress everyone with His righteous state of existence. And that fact is a major point that should be better understood. Sometimes we have this unrealistic idea about what it means to be without sin. I believe this exagerated expectation is what causes so many people to be confused about living without sin.

We create this over inflated idea of what it means to be without sin that not even Jesus would be able to meet the standards. Living without sin is not always so obvious to the casual observer. Often the difference is only known by God.

4) How would “crucify our sinful character,” be related to Galatians 5:16?

I believe we must first cooperate with the Holy Spirit to completely crucify our old man habits of sin before we can walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, which is what empowers us to resist the unholy clamorings of our sinful flesh nature.

We cannot walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man if we are clinging to some pet sin. We are either all of His, or we are none of His. The Holy Spirit cannot share a divided throne with Satan.

5) What is the only thing that can possibly oppose these desires of “the flesh?”

The only way we can successfully resist the unholy desires of our sinful flesh nature is by being born again and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Non-Christians may exercise will power and give up this or that moral imperfection but the result are not unto the honor and glory of God. That's the main difference.

I hope these answers are beginning to clear up the confusion I may have caused by not explaining things more clearly. If not, please hang in there with me until we come to a better understanding.

Mike

You haven't caused me any confusion...I just call it seeing the same thing from different vantage points.

In terms of this "crucifying business," I want to follow up on my testimony above a bit more, first, with a question, then after some have replied; I will have other related comments.

As you read my testimony above; what is it that could have made a "tough guy" like me cry; just watching a movie depiction of Christ, in Gesthemane? Why on earth would I be moved to tears, just reading about His Garden experience, in DA, while playing the song "I Come To The Garden Alone?"

It is an anecdotal question; but the answer, in my mind, comes out quite theologically correct. And I believe from my Bible studies, that the answer to my question here, will explain the "crucifying process, or event," that changes us, and fortifies us in Christ.

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

When I begin to focus on works - whether it's about overcoming or things I must do - I lose sight of Jesus, and I am in despair of ever being good enough for heaven. I walk away, because I know I am bad right down to my atoms.

When I focus on Jesus, and what He has done for me, and what He says He will do in me, I have hope, and I stick around.

I think we should let God be about His business in us, while we do the things He has given us to do. He has NEVER given us justification or glorification to do. Yet we seem to think He has given us sanctification to work on. Anxiously worrying about whether Christ's atonement was sufficient demonstrates only lack of faith. Anxiously worrying about whether the process of glorification with run without a hitch would be deemed bizarre. And yet, the other part of our salvation - sanctification - which is also entirely and as much God's responsibility as justification and glorification, is worried over, and sweated over, and agonised over in a manner that causes great confusion and even destroys faith.

My post dated November 10 was written when I'd been reading Ellen White's writings in the mindset that it was my job to produce obedience. I was so discouraged when I wrote it, and I'd lost the plot completely.

It's not our job to obey. Our righteousness is filthy rags - and righteousness is right-doing, isn't it?

If we do the only things we can - pray, study God's word, and share our faith and time with others, God does ALL of the rest. We WILL respond to the prompting of the Spirit, and we WILL obey, but it's not our business to set a timetable or agenda about obedience, because it's none of our business.

If the devil can't get you discouraged by falling and failing, he'll get you through your own self-righteousness. Look at anything except Jesus, and the devil will get you for sure.

In AA, the ultimate aim is to remain sober - free from the sin of drinking - but there are people who are referred to as "dry drunks". These are people who don't drink any more, but instead of letting their Higher Power take control and change EVERYTHING about them, overcoming the one sin of drinking has been enough for them. They are usually difficult people to get along with, and they give a poor example for the newly-sober. Their entire focus is on not drinking, while others are rejoicing in a whole new life, they rejoice only that they no longer drink.

I believe that it is possible to be free of known sin, but I believe that it is not my job to focus on that. Or to measure and assess my performance, or the performance of others. As God convicts me of the need to do or not do certain things, I will address them, knowing that it is time they were dealt with. And - as when we have to have an aching tooth removed - success is a foregone conclusion. We just have to go through the process - co-operate with the dentist - at the time.

Moral perfection? I'll have to think about that further. But if Christ's sacrifice isn't all-sufficient for my sanctification, too, then I am utterly lost.

Zyph, thank you for sharing those beautiful thoughts. Amen!!! The only way to experience the sinless example of Jesus is to keep our eyes focused on Him.

If not sinning is our goal then not sinning will be our focus - and if that's our state of mind then we are above all most miserable.

But if imitating the example of Jesus is our goal then Jesus will be our focus - and if that's our state of mind then we are above all most peaceful.

I will be curious to learn how things are progressing as you explore the subject of sanctification and moral perfection.