David, I think I know what brings me to tears when I comtemplate the love of God - I think it has something to do with the influence of the Holy Spirit on my heart and mind as I more fully comprehend the contrast between the goodness of God and the life of sin Jesus came to save me from.

What about you?

I believe another thing that is helpful as we strive to understand the truth about moral perfection and sanctification is discerning the difference between temptation and sin.

If we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man the Bible says that we are at that moment without sin - both legally and in reality. That is, we are truly morally perfect, without sin, blameless and spotless before the throne of God.

Nevertheless, our sinful flesh nature still continues to bombard our new man mind with unholy thoughts and feelings. I believe that most people confuse these sinful thoughts and feelings with committing a sin. And herein lies, in my opinion, the biggest reason why most Christians cannot accept the biblical truth concerning moral perfection.

But are born again believers immediately guilty of these initial unholy thoughts and feelings? I don't think so. I believe that they start off as temptations, and do not become sin until we desire and/or do them. If more people understood this point I believe there would be far less confusion concerning moral perfection.

Because people who think they are guilty when sinful thoughts and feelings enter their minds are going to resist any doctrine that suggests sinless purity is God's plan for every born again believer. But all this doctrinal confusion would be eliminated if they could just understand the difference between sin and temptation.

It is not a sin to be tempted - no matter how weird or bazaar the temptation. And all temptations begin as a thought or a feeling. If we immediately recoil and resist it, by keeping our eyes on Jesus, by staying connected to the Holy Spirit, by relying on God to empower us to obey His voice - then those unholy thoughts and feelings are only temptations which have been successfully resisted unto the honor and glory of God.

Not until Jesus rewards us with a sinless flesh body (when He returns) will we be free from all those hideous thoughts and feelings which originate with our sinful flesh nature.

So, what do the rest of you think?

Did we ever come to a conclusion regarding - When do we experience moral perfection? I went back over the previous posts and it seems to me that we are not united on this all important truth. I think there are basically two opposing views (please help me out if I missed one):

1. Moral perfection is a gift we receive the instant we refuse to retain even one pet darling defect of character and give ourselves wholly to Jesus. Once we're born again we are empowered by God to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to imitate the sinless example of Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. As babes in Christ we grow in grace and mature morally, and so long as we stay connected to Jesus we "do not sin" and "cannot sin." 1 John 3:9. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

2. Moral perfection is an on-going process that begins after we're born again. Over the course of a lifetime we gradually out grow certain defects of character, which God reveals no faster than He is able to empower us to overcome. We do not experience moral perfection until after years of growing and developing. However, during this period of imperfection Jesus covers our unknown defects of character with His blood and righteousness.

Does this fairly represent both sides of the picture? I realize there is another group who believe moral perfection is possible only after Jesus returns and equips us with a sinless flesh nature. But in light of all the Bible and SOP quotes this view stands unjustified.

As I see it, at least so far, the main difference between the two conclusions listed above has to do with when we actually experience moral perfection. By the way, I also realize that there is a difference between justified and sanctified righteousness, and how they relate to this subject. But here I'm focusing on sanctification (imparted righteousness), which is real righteousness, as opposed to justification (imputed righteousness), which is declared righteousness.

I also understand that there is distinction between moral, mental and physical perfection. And from what I've studied, 1) moral perfection concerns the heart and conscious (and is the gift we receive when we're born again), 2) mental perfection has to do with head knowledge (and is something that accumulates over time) and, of course, 3) physical perfection is one of the rewards Jesus will give us when He returns.

But what do you think? When do we experience moral perfection? Is it a gift we receive the very moment we're born again, and which matures over a lifetime? Or it is a gift we begin to receive the moment we're born again, and which unfolds over a lifetime? In other words, do we start off like the baby Jesus, or do we end up like the baby Jesus? Do we imitate His sinless example at the beginning of our walk, or at the end of our walk?

Or do you have an entirely different angle?

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

The alcoholic who surrenders to God is still addicted to alcohol. His body withdraws, the thought of a drink is appealing, enticing, and impossible to resist in his own strength. Only over time, as new neural paths are laid down, does drink become a truly undesirable thing.

So... when the alcoholic first called on God, and in His strength stopped drinking, was he converted to sobriety? Or was it only after he ceased to desire to drink on a psychological and cellular level? Had his drinking morals been perfected, enabling him to stop? Or were they only perfect after perfect health set in? And what of the notion that he is still an alcoholic all his life, even if he never drinks again. What if he slipped, and found himself in the hotel again? Was his conversion and moral perfection therefore not genuine?

Quote by Mike

"I have found that many of the people who participate in this forum are not sure about the relationship between righteousness by faith and the sanctuary. They don't seem to see a clear connection."

Mike...is it possible that you have a little "I" trouble here? It is more likely that some are better at expressing and articulating their thoughts on such a topic than others may be...I just thought that was worth mentioning as your statement struck me as being too generalized to be applicable to "almost everyone"...

Moral perfection, to me, cannot be exactly measured by humans.

That is a perogative left open only to God.

I think that if someone worries about "moral perfection," then they are likely miles away from it. It's a "no brainer" to me. Go to Jesus with an honest heart; respond to His direction, and His love, the perfection end of it is no man's land. Why do we even need to know the answer to a question like this? Please give us some Scripture that would tell us why or if we need to know when we are "morally perfected."

If you could explain that to us, we would probably have a good answer to your initial question on this thread.

Zyph, thank you for that stirring question. It really strikes at the heart of this subject. I think the answer to the issue you raised involves the difference between sinful character and sinful flesh.

A morally converted Christian has stopped drinking alcohol, but his sinful flesh hasn't stopped craving it. This person, and people in similiar situations, must learn to differeniate between the cravings of his sinful flesh nature and the desires of his new man heart. That's what Romans 7 is all about, as I understand it. If we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we must learn not to blame ourselves for the initial existence of unholy thoughts and feelings. They do not become sin until we desire and/or do them. Is that how you understand the issue?

Is the old saying - Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic - true from the biblical point of view? I don't think so. Paul referred to born again believers as "saints" and not "sinners." Seems to me we are purely Christians, not former alcoholic Christians. 2 Cor 5:17 seems to disallow a combination approach to the problem. In other words, we are not a combination of "old things are passed away" and "all thing are become new." It's either/or, but apparently not both.

David, thank you for those challenging words on page 3 of this thread. I don't know what to say about my "I" problem, except that hopefully in future it will not be so distracting. Please forgive me.

I take it you are not convinced that probing this question is a profitable venture? Perhaps not. But don't you think that it's at least a wee bit disturbing that there is so much contradiction among Christians on this subject? Especially in light of this quote:

DA 671 "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people."

Wrong! A reformed alcoholic is a perfectly well-balanced, growing individual, as long as he/she continues to work the steps, and rely on their Higher Power. When they look away, they drink, or become a "dry drunk".

There is perfection for humans only while we depend totally on God. We were born evil, and nothing good can come from us. Christians are sinners. Reformed, maybe, but sinners. And throughout eternity, we will be reformed sinners. All our goodness - even then - will come from God. There are some Ellen White quotes about this. I don't have time to find them just now.

You seem to be implying that we will be changed into perfect people over time. I would argue that the growth we experience is learning not to look away from the Source of our power. We get better at that, and the consequence is less desire to sin. Alcoholics have to make a daily commitment to their Higher Power, and attend meetings, or they lose their direction. I would agree that the "old man" thing is true, but I don't believe it is only our flesh that causes problems. Our minds remain in rebellion, and we have to consciously make a daily commitment to God. I believe perfection applies to us learning to walk with God, without becoming distracted.

I quote your post:
"I also understand that there is distinction between moral, mental and physical perfection. And from what I've studied, 1) moral perfection concerns the heart and conscious (and is the gift we receive when we're born again), 2) mental perfection has to do with head knowledge (and is something that accumulates over time) and, of course, 3) physical perfection is one of the rewards Jesus will give us when He returns."

I suspect your reasoning here is merely your opinion. Can you back up each of these assumptions? Bear in mind that we are instructed to attend to both physical and mental issues, and on this planet, there is gradual accumulation and advancement. Why would morality be different? (The bible mentions us growing up into the stature of men and women in the new earth, doesn't it? If so, why aren't we already complete? This is just an aside thought.)

Quote by Mike:

"DA 671 "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people."

Mike

I don't see that any contradiction should be necessary on this point. I think we always run into trouble when we use short quotes to explain some point of doctrine...

Take a look at the next paragraph of the quote you gave. What difference do you notice?

DA.671.003
Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.
DA.671.004
"When He [the Spirit of truth] is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The preaching of the word will be of no avail without the continual presence and aid of the Holy Spirit. This is the only effectual teacher of divine truth. Only when the truth is accompanied to the heart by the Spirit will it quicken the conscience or transform the life. One might be able to present the letter of the word of God, he might be familiar with all its commands and promises; but unless the Holy Spirit sets home the truth, no souls will fall on the Rock and be broken. No amount of education, no advantages, however great, can make one a channel of light without the co-operation of the Spirit of God. The sowing of the gospel seed will not be a success unless the seed is quickened into life by the dew of heaven. Before one book of the New Testament was written, before one gospel sermon had been preached after Christ's ascension, the Holy Spirit came upon the praying apostles. Then the testimony of their enemies was, "Ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine." Acts 5:28.

This definitely changes the picture that you had painted with the shorter quote. The process of "moral perfection" is actually well laid out in the next paragraph, after your shorter quote.

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Zyph, I didn't mean to single out one particular defect of character (i.e., alcoholism). What you say about drinking seems to be true concerning all former moral imperfections. That is, if we take our eyes off Jesus we automatically revert back to the mind of the old man and resurrect our former habits of sin. We may not act out all of them by the time we repent and God restores us to the mind of the new man, but the potential is possible.

From what I've read about crucifying the "old man" I get the idea that he symbolizes our sinful character defects and imperfections. And from what I've read about "sinful flesh" nature I get the idea that it is the accumulated effects of sin passed on from generation to generation.

Thus the old man is the sinful habits we ourselves cultivate, and sinful flesh is what we inherit from our parents dating back to Adam and Eve. So, if I'm reading Romans 6-8 correctly Jesus empowers us to crucify our old man habits of sin (sinful character), whereas He empowers us to control (not crucify) the sinful desires of our fallen flesh nature. Please compare Rom 6:6 and 1 Cor 9:27.

And that once we cooperate with Jesus and crucify our old man cultivated habits of sin, we then experience the miracle of rebirth. At this point the old man dies. However, our sinful flesh nature continues to hound and harass us with unholy thoughts and feelings, which we may resist unto the honor and glory of God by staying connected to Jesus. These ungodly thoughts and feelings will resemble our old man mind, but we must not confuse the two.

Although the voice of sinful flesh nature and the voice of the old man are identical twins in many ways, I believe it is important that we make a distinction between the two voices. Otherwise, in light of Romans 6-8, we will be tempted to doubt our conversion to Christianity. Just because we are still bombarded with sinful thoughts and feelings does not mean that we have not been born again.

These unholy thoughts and feelings originate with our sinful flesh nature, and we must be careful not to assume that they originated with our old man mind. Why? Because according to Romans 6 we crucified our old man mind when we accepted Jesus as our personal Saviour. Therefore, unless we have resurrected our old man mind, the origin of our sinful thoughts and feelings can be traced back to our sinful flesh natrure.

Initially these unholy thoughts and feelings are only temptations, which we may resist through the indwelling power of the Spirit of God. But if we dwell upon them and begin to cherish them we have resurrected our old man mind and have slipped back into our former habits of sin. And then we must receive the gift of repentance in order for Jesus to restore us back to the mind of the new man. And then the old man returns to the grave.

My studies have led me to believe that to ignore this distinction is to misunderstand what Paul is saying in Romans 6-8. The constrast between sinful flesh (inherited propensities) and sinful character (cultivated propensities) is the key that unlocked this issue for me.

RE: the differences between moral, mental and physical perfection I'm not sure what you're having trouble with? What I'm trying to get across is that like Jesus, who matured from childhood to manhood, so to we may imitate His example when we experience rebirth and begin to mature in the fruit of Spirit, and increase in knowledge. But physically we will not receive a sinless flesh body until after Jesus returns. True, we must take care of our health now, but we will not experience physical perfection until Jesus comes.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]