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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77313
07/19/06 11:09 PM
07/19/06 11:09 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Here's the context of Col. 1:15. Here it says that Christ is before all things, which means there wasn't a time when Christ did not exist. It also points out that Christ created all things, which points to an interpretation which suggests that "firstborn" has to do with the act of creating, not that Christ was the first creature created.
I don't know if this is in disagreement with what John said, however, since John did not explicitly say there was a time when Christ did not exist, I don't think. If John has in mind something similar to what I wrote regarding "brought forth," perhaps we're in agreement. I'll have to see what he has to say.
In Proverbs 8 we find that Christ was brought forth before anything was created. Verse 30 reads “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him”.
Peace and Grace David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77314
07/19/06 11:10 PM
07/19/06 11:10 PM
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Posts: 149
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Quote:
Quote:
The Ten Commandment was given by God Himself, where the 1st command says: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
It was Christ who spoke the first commandment. It was He who said, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me."
Who's will was he doing His own? Peace and Grace David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77315
07/20/06 01:39 AM
07/20/06 01:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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1.On Proverbs 8, the idea isn't that before wisdom was brought forth, it didn't exist, is it? The chapter is not talking about creating wisdom, correct?
2.On the comment of Christ's giving the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me," I didn't undersand the significance of your question. The Father and Christ are One, so He was doing the will of both. I suppose you could include the Holy Spirit in there too.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77316
07/20/06 01:54 AM
07/20/06 01:54 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
1.On Proverbs 8, the idea isn't that before wisdom was brought forth, it didn't exist, is it? The chapter is not talking about creating wisdom, correct?
2.On the comment of Christ's giving the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me," I didn't undersand the significance of your question. The Father and Christ are One, so He was doing the will of both. I suppose you could include the Holy Spirit in there too.
No, Proverbs 8:22-30 is talking about Christ and God at least from verse. Christ being brought forth from God. (KJV)
The Father and Christ are one, concerning creation, salvation etc. However they are not the same person as the trinity teaches, three gods that make one god. There is the Father who is the Almighty God and then there is the Son of God Christ.
If Christ is God and God is Christ and they both are the one god of the trinity, then God is also the Archangel Michael, correct?
Peace and Grace David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77317
07/20/06 02:51 AM
07/20/06 02:51 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014
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Posts: 936
Quebec
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Hello James.
The Father and the Son are separate persons, separate physical beings.
The Bible and Spirit of Prophecy confirm this.
Most New Testament letters make this distinction in their salutation:
Romans 1:7 - Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Judgment scene in Revelation 5 proves that both the Father and the Son will be in heaven as separate persons:
Rev. 1:5 - (The Father) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev. 1:6,7 - (Christ) And I beheld...in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain...And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Early Writings 77 - ‘I have often seen the lovely Jesus that He is a person. I asked Him if His Father had a form like himself. Said Jesus, “I am in the express image of my Father’s person.” ‘ (Italic emphasis in original)
Early Writings 54 - ‘I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus’ countenance and admired his lovely person. The Father’s person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, “If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist.” ‘
The Bible uses the term ‘God the Father’. The Bible does not use the term ‘God the Son’ or ‘God the Spirit’. These are confusing church expressions borrowed from Roman Catholicism.
Christ was the Son of God since He was brought forth in the days of eternity. Micah 5:2 describes both His birth in Bethlehem and His birth in the days of eternity. “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting. margin ~ the days of eternity.
Proverbs 8:22-30 describes when the Son was brought forth. Note that there are three different Hebrew words translated as wisdom in this chapter. We also read that Christ is called ‘the wisdom of God’ in 1Corinthians 1:24, 30. Ellen White says that Proverbs 8:22-30 refers to Christ speaking about himself when she writes “And the Son of God declares concerning Himself...[Prov. 8:22-30 quoted]” Patriarchs and Prophets 34. It is somewhat significant that she places this foundational declaration at the very start of her five volume Conflict of the Ages series, the second page in fact. That none may be left in doubt.
Another landmark statement is found on the first page of the original 1858 Great Controversy. “I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS” (Emphasis in original) 1858 Great Controversy 17. She well understood and taught that Jesus was the Son of God, before creation, before Bethlehem.
Gordon
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77318
07/20/06 02:59 AM
07/20/06 02:59 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
If time is not a “thing” that was created before anything is created, then there might be a time where Christ does not exist, before God brought him forth.
Life and time are inseparable. Wherever life exists, time exists. It is the nature of life. There is no life outside the concept of time. Where there is no time there is no life. Time was not created. It is as life is in God. God is not outside of time. Eternal is a definition of time. If you take time out of eternal you have forever nothing.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77319
07/20/06 03:24 AM
07/20/06 03:24 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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James, this is a topic which Tom and I have not discussed, but this should be interesting.
We need to remember: Mat 16:16 … Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Christ said that he would build his church upon this immovable rock: the revelation that “he is Son of the Living God”.
A doctrine that teaches: that he is God in such a way, so as that he is not the “Son of God” is contrary to the revelation from the Father to which Christ himself attested.
Christ is the Son of the living God. It is verily in the reality that he is the Son of God that the issues of the controversy between good and evil; sin and righteousness, salvation and destruction have their meaning. The gospel is Christ; Christ is the gospel. Whatever concept of salvation one has; accordingly the concept of Christ is altered.
Christ indeed has a beginning. The scriptures are clear on that. Interestingly enough he specifically points it out to Laodicea.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Heb 1:5 … Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
What is so important about him being the Son of God?
That which is important about it is the relationship / fellowship that exist between the Son and the Father; the reality of it; the revelation of it; the truth of it; the life of it. These are not roles, and as such cannot be interchanged.
It is this very relationship that Satan wishes to alter and void.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77320
07/20/06 03:30 AM
07/20/06 03:30 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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The scriptures do not speak of what transpired before the beginning. To propose doctrines and questions on ‘before the beginning’ is not scriptural nor of faith.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77321
07/20/06 03:42 AM
07/20/06 03:42 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
This is my comment to John B, according to his line of thought, Jesus was born from the Spirit of the Father, which makes him also a Spirit not inferior to the Father’s Spirit. But an equal one would only act as a Son of God and maybe has not something what the Father has.
Good point.
Christ was born of his Father’s spirit. It is a spiritual birth. He was born before all other creation, thus born first. It is the same kind of birth that we are called to.
Christ is Son of God in such a way as we are called to be Sons of God. He is born of the spirit of God in such a way as we are called to be born of the spirit of God.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77322
07/20/06 04:13 AM
07/20/06 04:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. (DA 469)
This seems clear to me. "Self-existent" describes one whose existence does not depend upon another.
"The beginning of the creation of God." "The firstborn of creation" are texts the Jehovah's Witnesses use to prove Christ was created. Here's what Waggoner comment on these texts.
The view in question is built upon a misconception of a single text, Rev. 3:14: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God." This is wrongly interpreted to mean that Christ is the first being that God created--that God's work of creation began with Him. But this view antagonizes the scripture which declares that Christ Himself created all things. To say that God began His work of creation by creating Christ is to leave Christ entirely out of the work of creation.
The word rendered "beginning" is arche, meaning, as well, "head" or "chief." It occurs in the name of the Greek ruler, Archon, in archbishop and the word archangel. Take this last word. Christ is the archangel. See Jude 9; 1 Thess. 4:16; John 5:28, 29; Dan. 10:21. This does not mean that He is the first of the angels, for He is not an angel but is above them. Heb. 1:4. It means that He is the chief or prince of the angels, just as an archbishop is the head of the bishops. Christ is the commander of the angels. See Rev. 19:19-14. He created the angels. Col. 1:16. And so the statement that He is the beginning or head of the creation of God means that in Him creation had its beginning; that, as He Himself says, He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Rev. 21:6; 22:13. He is the source whence all things have their origin.
Neither should we imagine that Christ is a creature, because Paul calls Him (Col. 1:15) "The First-born of every creature" for the very next verses show Him to be Creator and not a creature. "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist." Now if He created everything that was ever created and existed before all created things, it is evident that He Himself is not among created things. He is above all creation and not a part of it. (Christ And His Righteousness)
I think Waggoner's explanation here is correct.
I agree that Christ is the begotten Son of God, from the days of eternity. I agree that Christ was brought forth, or proceeded from the Father. I don't believe this implies there was a time when Christ existed. Indeed, as I mentioned before, I don't think it's possible for this to be the case given that Christ created all things, which must include space/time, it seems to me.
Obviously we cannot conceive of what existence apart from space/time consists of, but it seems clear to me that it must have been created because otherwise we would never have gotten here, if that makes any sense. I also think that space cannot exist apart from time, and vice versa. This appears to agree to me with the law of physics, especially the theory of Relativity.
This is getting a bit beyond a typical theological discussion, isn't it?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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