John.

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Christ is Son of God in such a way as we are called to be Sons of God. He is born of the spirit of God in such a way as we are called to be born of the spirit of God.
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One question John, where was Christ before he became the Son of God?
Before I became a son of God, I was the son of the world, but I am exist.

In His love

James S

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Time was not created. It is as life is in God. God is not outside of time. Eternal is a definition of time. If you take time out of eternal you have forever nothing.
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Interesting, I think my Almighty God is some one who are not limited to time , if He is not outside of time , He is then within the time or limited to time . This mean, He could not be anywhere at the same time , just same like me, who can only be at one place at a time.

In His love

James S

Now we have 2(two) ideas about Christ being:

1. Brought forth from the Father that according to John B. is born of the Spirit, not a self existent one.
2. A self existent One as according to Tom E.

John, I like your arguments and according to me it is really good, backed up by the Scripture as well, very solid.

Now I want to hear where it would lead between you and Tom.

In His love

James S

I should add that in regards to "self-existent" the idea that Sister White is addressing has nothing to do with living for self, but simply with the fact that there wasn't a time when Christ did not exist. Here's the statement again:

Through his own suffering, Abraham was enabled to behold the Saviour's mission of sacrifice. But Israel would not understand that which was so unwelcome to their proud hearts. Christ's words concerning Abraham conveyed to His hearers no deep significance. The Pharisees saw in them only fresh ground for caviling. They retorted with a sneer, as if they would prove Jesus to be a madman, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am."

Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. (DA 469)

Again, this isn't dealing with Christ's living for self, which of course He never did, but with His eternal existance.

That Christ's taking the name of "I am" was proclaiming Himself to be the self-existent One is evident by the reaction of His hearers.

I fully agree that Christ never suggested that he was self-existent at any time, as he is not.

The concept of self-existence is not one of divine revelation, but rather a conjecture of flesh and blood. Simply put, since the fall, man finds that he does not have in himself the ability of perpetuating and securing his own life. Man finds that he does not have control over life in himself. That anybody can take it away from him.

So the natural fallen concept of God is that he is untouchable because God has the ability to self-generate life, hence self-existent. The concept is by nature physical, as man’s concept of life is such. So man worships a concept of physics which is un-killable hence unanswerable to anyone. Whatever is un-killable hence unanswerable is God. Thus the fundamental concept of self-existence is doing whatever pleases you without consequences to yourself.

This is not the idea that God had in the first commandment. This is not the kind of worship he spoke of.

Fallen man’s reactions to God’s or Christ’s statements are not according to the meaning that God has, or else they would be converted. The reason they picked up stones is because they were totally amiss in understanding what he said and he so plainly told them:

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Very good John, I have no comment so far, which mean I agree with your view.

In His love

James S

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Did divinity create space/time? Or is space/time as eternal as divinity?

If divinity created space/time, then Christ must precede it, and if so, how does it make any sense to say there was a time when Christ did not exist? I know this is repeating things, but the idea that Christ created all things, yet was Himself created is not making any sense to me. That is, I don't see how Christ could have created space/time. It seems like you'd have to take the point of view that space/time is eternal, which has its own problems.


John: This is taking an assumption which the scriptures do not give as a preposition for interpretation. It then builds on the assumption for which there is no scriptural basis. The scriptures plainly declare the existence of time and space as well as God. Therefore if there is going to be an assumption it should follow the line that time and space are innate to life as it is in God.

Tom: The Bible says that Christ created all things. Space and time are things. Therefore Christ created them. This isn't making any assumption which the Scriptures to not give. The Scriptures plainly declare the existence of trees and rocks as well as space and time. This doens't mean rocks and trees are innate to life, any more than it would do so of time and space.

If time and space were innate to life, then they would be eternal, because life is eternal. That is, they would never have had a beginning. I don't believe this is true, nor could it be true. If time has always existed, you could back in time without ever hitting a beginning. There would be no beginning. It's not possible that there hasn't been a beginning. The Scriptures declare there was a beginning, and in that beginning Christ was God, and Christ was with God. If Christ was in the beginning with God, then there could not have been a time when He did not exist.

My idea is as founded on Scripture as yours is. I think it would be better if you just shared what you think without making characterizations about what is or is not Scriptural. Of course you think your ideas are Scriptural, and I think mine are. That goes without saying. If you wish to dispute a point I'm making, and ask for me to provide evidence for my point from Scripture, that's fine, but we don't need to be making characterizations which don't add anything to the discussion.

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It seems to me that Waggoner's arguments, all based on Scripture, are completely sound. Assuming they are sound, Christ is not a created being.

John: Waggoner’s arguments in that matter are not sound as they are not based on the revelation of scriptures, but on man’s concept of God. He does not present scripture to show his position; but asserts an interpretation.

Tom: Every one of Waggoner's arguments were based on the revelation of Scripture. I don't know why you would say they weren't. Everything he said was reasoned arguments presented on the basis of Scriptural texts. He cited Jude 9; 1 Thess. 4:16; John 5:28, 29; Dan. 10:21; Rev. 19:19-14; Col. 1:16;Rev. 21:6; 22:13 in the section I quoted. I just quoted a small section of the chapter "Is Christ a Created Being" which includes much more Scripture. I didn't see anything based on man's concept of God as opposed to Scripture.

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It seems to me to be an audacious claim that we can conceive of divinity being born. It seems to me what is really being conceived is not divinity being born, but an idea of some creature being born, and that idea being considered to be divinity being born.

John: Interesting point; I did not come up with the idea; the Father did, and Christ affirms it, and lives it.
Mat 16:16 … Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Is it so difficult to understand "being born of the spirit"; is it not central theme in the gospel?

Tom: Where does Christ say anything about divinity being born?


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Regarding Christ's being self-existent, how would you prove from Scripture that God is self-existent? There's no text that says, "I am God. I am self-existent." You'd have to get to this by reason, concluding that if God is before all things and God created all things, it must be the case that God is self-existent. It seems to me whatever argument you could make about God being self-existent, you could make about Christ.

John says that in the beginning Christ was with God, was God, and that all things were made by Him, and that without Him nothing that was made was made. Given these things are true, how could it not be the case that Christ was self-existent?


John: Thank you for confirming that there is no such statement in the scriptures.

Tom:I just wrote, "Given these things are true, how could it not be the case that Christ was self-existent?" How is it that you would interpret this as an occasion for giving thanks for the exact opposite of what I'm saying?

John: The assumption then should be dismissed and a scriptural value to be sought. John says many other things which wonderfully define and explain the scriptures you quoted.The question of what makes God God seems to be rather dictated by what man thinks it takes to be God. As we see with many other thoughts about God; he is very unlike what man thinks him to be. Self-existence is not what makes God God.

In terms of Creation; here is the scripture record:
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his (Father’s) glory, and the express image of his (Father’s) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

It is not only that he is Son of the Father; not only that the Father created the worlds through him; but he is appointed heir, and has obtained it by inheritance.

Tom: This is the same thing Waggoner says.

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"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
Again, there is no text which says, "I am self-existent" but this seems to me to be saying precisely that. Proclaiming oneself to be the first, the last, who was, who is, and who is to come seems like the way to say "self-existent" without using those words.


John:That would be a strong inference disregarding the rest of the scriptures.

Tom:Is there some Scripture which says something different?

John:You did not comment anything on my basis of understanding Christ on the basis of the Gospel. The gospel is the revelation of the Father and the Son. This revelation is the gospel. It is in the context of salvation that we see the truth of God.

Tom:I agree with this.

John: Self-existence is not an aspect of salvation. In fact it is diametrically opposed to it. All of self is called to the altar.

Tom:This strikes me as a play on words. As I pointed out, "self-existence" as I was using the term, or rather, as Ellen White used the term, was not dealing with self in the sense you are using it, but in the sense of always having existed, which is the topic we were discussing.