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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77353
07/30/06 08:58 AM
07/30/06 08:58 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote
After quoting John 17:20-23, Ellen White exclaims:
"Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one." 8 Testimonies 269. These quotations can also be found in Ministry of Healing 421,422.
There is no reason for any to be ensnared by the Roman Catholic Trinity.
Gordon
Unquote.
quote
Thus, we have two Gods, the Father and the Son, but they are One.
According to you, by believing this, are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
In His love
James S
unqoute
I do not believe that we have two Gods yet;
Is. 9:6 shows that Christ will be called “mighty God” and a few other titles however, this is not until the governments have been put upon His shoulders. This will be at the Second Coming, which is also when Christ puts off His High Priest robes for the kingly robes.
Christ right now is our high priest, when the Almighty says it is finished then Christ is no longer our high priest but will the mighty God.
This is how I understand it to be.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77354
07/30/06 05:52 PM
07/30/06 05:52 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Physical or “spiritual”, this birth implies that Christ had a beginning.
Wonderful realization! Indeed he does, and this asserts that he is the Son of God. Moreover it tells us how we may be sons of God.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
A doctrine that teaches: that he is God in such a way, so as that he is not the “Son of God” is contrary to the revelation from the Father to which Christ himself attested.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77355
07/30/06 05:58 PM
07/30/06 05:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
John: Hebrews 7 is establishing the priesthood of Melchisedec over the Levitical, and stating that Christ has no record or ancestry in Levi.
The passage is simply attesting that Christ is an eternal priest, who has neither beginning of days nor end of life.
That would be making it contrary to its intended purpose, and contrary to the testimony of scripture.
Moreover, you are trying to assert that Christ is not the Son of God.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77356
07/30/06 07:16 PM
07/30/06 07:16 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
Hebrews 7 is establishing the priesthood of Melchisedec over the Levitical, and stating that Christ has no record or ancestry in Levi.
The fact that Christ has no record or ancestry in Levi is established in v. 14, where Paul says that Christ descended from Judah (v. 14). In verses 1-3 Paul is establishing the superiority of the priesthood of Melchizedek over the Levitical on the basis of the eternity of its High Priest, who has no beginning and no end of life.
Quote:
Moreover, you are trying to assert that Christ is not the Son of God.
What I'm trying to assert is that He wasn't created or procreated by God.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77357
07/31/06 05:08 AM
07/31/06 05:08 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
What I'm trying to assert is that He wasn't created or procreated by God.
Hence you are asserting that he is not the ‘Son of God’ as the scriptures present him.
Quote:
Notice that He is declared to be the firstborn of all creation, and the firstborn among(ek) the dead. He is not declared to be the firstborn among all creation.
It appears you mixed something up in your greek; but ‘ek’ means ‘from’ or ‘out of’ as a point or place proceeded from. In other words; he is no longer among the dead; he is first-begotten ‘out of’ the dead.
As to firstborn of all creation (prototokos pases ktiseos); it means just that; he is firstborn of all creation. He is born in the same way we are called to be born of God. Firstborn is not preclusion that there are no others born, but that he is firstborn and in fact others follow after him, that is why he is pre-eminent and first. Here is some more scripture to confirm it and make it plain.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among (en) many brethren.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
It is because he is of us fellows that he obtains pre-eminence in every thing by being first in all these.
And the Father is not ashamed to call us Sons, because we too are created in his image and called to be born of his spirit. This is God’s plan and purpose that in him (Christ) might all the fullness ‘enter in and take residence’ (katoikesai). Col 1:19
Why?
Eph 3:19 … to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Col 2:9- 10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
The scriptures tell us that he is both: created and creator; created of God and through whom God created all the rest(through-'dia'; as a channel and not a source); born of God and through whom we are begotten to God; born of God in the same way that you and I are called to be born of God; born before all creation, thus firstborn. That he is God unto us yet his Father is God unto him. That the relationship/fellowship that is between them is the very relationship/fellowship to which we are called; to enter in the very same way that he entered. He is the door, and he is the shepherd; he enters in by the same door that he is, through which we also enter in. And that the purpose of all this is that God the Father may be all in all.
Rev 3:14; Col 1:14; John 20:17; Rev 3:12; John 17:21-23; John 10:1-10; 1Cor 15:28
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77358
07/31/06 05:13 AM
07/31/06 05:13 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Here is a few scriptures that show the Father’s and Son’s idea of Son of God:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth:
Joh 7:28 … and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77359
07/31/06 05:29 AM
07/31/06 05:29 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom are all things, and we through (dia) him.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77360
07/31/06 12:01 PM
07/31/06 12:01 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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So our God has a God? Someone could thus speculate in if there are even more steps in this hiearchy..
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77361
07/31/06 02:12 PM
07/31/06 02:12 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
It appears you mixed something up in your greek; but ‘ek’ means ‘from’ or ‘out of’ as a point or place proceeded from. In other words; he is no longer among the dead; he is first-begotten ‘out of’ the dead.
I didn’t mix things up. The preposition ek denotes origin, and the meaning is clearly that He proceeded from the dead. Thus, our Portuguese version, and also Weymouth, in English, translate the expression as “from among” the dead. So, “Firstborn from the dead” means He is necessarily included in the group of those who died.
In Romans 8:29, “that he might be the firstborn among (en) many brethren” the context is that Christ is called our brother. This is so because He Himself became a human being (Heb. 2:14). Here, too, the preposition denotes that Christ is necessarily included among (en) the group of human beings.
But in “firstborn of all creation” no preposition is used suggesting that Christ is necessarily included in the group of those who were created.
Are things clear now?
Quote:
The scriptures tell us that he is both: created and creator
First, no creature should be worshipped. And second, no creature has the power to create and sustain life.
Quote:
Here is a few scriptures that show the Father’s and Son’s idea of Son of God
This was already analyzed in other discussions. Christ’s subordinative passages in the Bible denote His role as representative of the race. Adam should have been subordinated to God but rebelled against Him. Christ, the second Adam, came to do what Adam failed to do.
Quote:
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom are all things, and we through (dia) him.
If this verse prevents Christ from being God, then it also prevents the Father from being Lord.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77362
08/01/06 12:02 AM
08/01/06 12:02 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
So our God has a God? Someone could thus speculate in if there are even more steps in this hiearchy..
No need to speculate.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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