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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77343
07/23/06 05:30 AM
07/23/06 05:30 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The reason why they picked up stones is because they hated Him, and were looking for an excuse. The excuse they took was that He had taken the name of the self-existent One.
With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am."
Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin.
Again the priests and rabbis cried out against Jesus as a blasphemer. His claim to be one with God had before stirred them to take His life, and a few months later they plainly declared, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God." John 10:33. Because He was, and avowed Himself to be, the Son of God, they were bent on destroying Him. (DA 470)
The idea of being the Son of God is combined with Christ's declaring Himself to be the self-existent One.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77344
07/23/06 11:23 AM
07/23/06 11:23 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Interesting, I think my Almighty God is some one who is not limited to time , if He is not outside of time , He is then within the time or limited to time . This mean, He could not be anywhere at the same time , just same like me, who can only be at one place at a time.
The concept that there is a way to get or be outside time or space is not scriptural. Scripture suggests no such concept. That thought is invention of so-called science of the last generation, only to be disproved by the next generation. To suggest that there was a time when time or space did not exist is to suggest that God did not exist; for there was no place for him to be; hence there was no one there to create it. To suggest that time came into existence; (was created) meaning it happened at a point in time, is self defeating. Where there is no space there is no existence. Really the thoughts that time and space are created are only a religious version of the big bang theory which the latest so-called science is proposing. In which they propose that everything came from a small something, so small, very small, very very small, infinitesimally small, in fact nothing; and this nothing exploded, and so it all is. And their theory is for the purpose of denying God. But what they fail to acknowledge is that it all came from God, and God is neither small, nor nothing.
Time and space are an innate aspect of life as it is in God. If there is no time or space there is no life. Only in death there is no time or space. God cannot be more than one place at the same time physically, but he is present everywhere by his spirit. That is the point of the gospel and all scriptural record. He not only wants to be present with us by his spirit; but in us by his spirit. Life by its very nature is a sequence of events, which means time, where there is no time there is no sequence of events; where there is no sequence of events there is no life.
So there is no space outside of time, and there is no time outside of space; as there is no life outside of God. So there is no place where God could go that is outside of time and space which are innate aspects of his life.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77345
07/29/06 12:43 AM
07/29/06 12:43 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I disagree with the arguments presented here as evidence that Christ was literally begotten of God. Quote:
A doctrine that teaches: that he is God in such a way, so as that he is not the “Son of God” is contrary to the revelation from the Father to which Christ himself attested.
The word “son” in the Bible most of the time does not emphasize the idea of “being born of” physically; this is abundantly evident in expressions like “the sons of this age” (Luc. 20:34), “children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3), “sons of light” (1 Thess. 5:5); note also statements like: “Not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants” (Rom. 9:7); here, literal descent is not equivalent to sonship. And: “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil” (1 John 3:10). Since the devil has never created or procreated anyone, who are his children? Thus, it is evident that sonship in the Bible is, most of the time, not associated with procreation, but with similarity of nature, or oneness of purpose.
Quote:
Christ indeed has a beginning. The scriptures are clear on that.
The Scriptures are clear on the fact that Christ did not have a beginning.
Hebrews 7:3 “He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever.”
Why is Melchizedeck a type of Christ? Because he has neither beginning of days nor end of life. The fact that he doesn’t have beginning of days is made even more clear by the words “without father or mother or genealogy”. If Christ had been literally born of God, how could these words apply to Him?
Quote:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
The word arche can mean beginning as starting, but it can also mean beginning as origin or originator.
Quote:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
Christ is "the firstborn of all creation" (v.16) in the same way that He is "the firstborn from the dead" (v.18). What does "fisrtborn" in v. 18 have to do with birth? Was Christ the first person born who ever died? Or is the idea here that of pre-eminence?
Colossians 1:18 “He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent”.
In which way is the word “firstborn” in Hebrews 12:23 related to literal birth?
Hebrews 12:23 “And to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”
Quote:
Heb 1:5 … Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This passage is quoting Psalm 2:7 and 2 Samuel 7.
2 Samuel 7 says:
"When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son" (2 Sam. 7:12-14).
Here Solomon is used as a type of Christ. How is he used as a type of Christ? By being literally begotten by God or by having his throne forever established by God?
Now Psalm 2:
"'I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.' I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel'" (Ps. 2:6-9).
What is Ps. 2 speaking about? Generation or kingship? What is founded upon a decree? The kingdom of the Messiah is founded upon a decree, an eternal decree, of God the Father.
How was this decree executed? It was executed, or carried into effect, by Christ's resurrection from the dead and by the exaltation consequent on that:
"This He has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee'" (Acts 13:33).
"So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee'" (Hebrews 5:5).
If THE BIBLE says Psalm 2:7 was fulfilled by Christ's resurrection and exaltation, what is the basis for applying it to a literal generation of Christ?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77346
07/29/06 03:17 PM
07/29/06 03:17 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
I disagree with the arguments presented here as evidence that Christ was literally begotten of God.
You are disagreeing with things I have not presented. If you check my posts, the birth that I have spoken of is not physical; but spiritual. Christ is born of his Father’s spirit. That is what it means to be son of God. A doctrine that teaches: that he is God in such a way, so as that he is not the “Son of God” is contrary to the revelation from the Father to which Christ himself attested.
Rosangela, Your whole argument is for the purpose of proving that Christ is NOT son of God (albeit physical, which I have not suggested). This is contrary to the revelation of the Father and attestation of Christ.
Hebrews 7 is establishing the priesthood of Melchisedec over the Levitical, and stating that Christ has no record or ancestry in Levi. Hebrews 7 is not saying what you are proposing, and it is not contradicting what it has established in chapter 1.
Quote:
Christ is "the firstborn of all creation" (v.16) in the same way that He is "the firstborn from the dead" (v.18). What does "fisrtborn" in v. 18 have to do with birth? Was Christ the first person born who ever died? Or is the idea here that of pre-eminence?
Colossians 1:18 “He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent”.
First gives you the “pre” over others; but ‘first’ over others in what? The part that follows gives the meaning. The way you have it is that he is pre-eminent in nothing, because you are dropping that which he is ‘first’ in. Paul lists numerous ‘firsts’ in order that he may be ‘first’ in everything. Do not drop that which follows or you will end up with nothing. One of the 'firsts' is that he is first-born of all creation, and that is one of the things that makes him pre-eminent.
Quote:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
The word arche can mean beginning as starting, but it can also mean beginning as origin or originator.
'arche' means beginning, first, as stated in Rev 3:14. This is true in Christ.
'archegos' could mean originator, which is not found in Rev 3:14.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77347
07/29/06 03:30 PM
07/29/06 03:30 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
John: Self-existence is not an aspect of salvation. In fact it is diametrically opposed to it. All of self is called to the altar.
Tom:This strikes me as a play on words. As I pointed out, "self-existence" as I was using the term, or rather, as Ellen White used the term, was not dealing with self in the sense you are using it, but in the sense of always having existed, which is the topic we were discussing.
This is not a play on words. Self-existence is a term defining the type of existence; namely existence by ‘self’. It is not portraying pre-existence or eternal life. If it is not, ‘existing by self’, then it cannot be self-existence. The concept of self-existence can be conceived to mean either or both: existence by ones own un-killable physics; existence by one’s own spirit. In other words, it defines the source of existence; namely ‘self’.
Further, ‘existence’ is another word/expression that is not found in the scriptures. Hence conveys an idea that is not scriptural. When applied to a person, it conveys the idea of a life, yet not life, but existence without regard to the ‘nature of life’ of the person; yet it is as if existence gives life. This is not a scriptural concept. We exist because we have life; not that we have life because we exist. The expression ‘existence’ when applied to a person, therefore asserts life without regard to ‘quality or spirit’. ‘Self-existence’ is then the concept of ‘asserting the self-life without regard to quality or spirit. This is diametrically opposed to the scriptural concept of ‘life’, and especially so of ‘eternal life’.
Eternal life is a qualitative and spiritual concept in the scriptures, and denies life outside of its qualitative and spiritual position. Christ said: It is the spirit that ‘gives life’, the flesh profits nothing. So the point is that God has established the source of life in spirit. The second point is that it is his spirit that is life. All those born of his spirit have that life. Christ is the first-born of all creation. Christ said that as the Father has life in himself so has he given to the Son to have life in himself. The Son was given this life; he does not have it ‘of’ himself. Another way Christ expressed this life is; I live by the Father. Yet, another way he expressed it: “The Father dwells in me and I in him”. So it is the Father’s spirit in the Son that is that life.
That birth is a spiritual birth. It is a birth born of spirit by faith of a free will. That is what makes a son. The scriptures say concerning Christ. Rom. 1;3 …declared to be the son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness. That is what the controversy between good and evil; Christ and Satan is all about. A life from God or a life of self.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77348
07/29/06 09:29 PM
07/29/06 09:29 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Veteran Member
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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Hello James. Quote:
Quote.
The Father and the Son are separate persons, separate physical beings.
I think maybe what you mean is they are separate Persons as separate spiritual beings ?
But at least you have said that the Father and the Son are two separate persons, i.e. the Father and the Son, the God and the Lord, the One that sit on the throne (God) and the Lamb that stands amid of the elders (Christ).
Yes, I read that the Father and Son are two separate physical beings as described in Revelation 5:1-7.
The Father is described in Daniel 7:9 - "the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame". Then Daniel sees the Son of God - "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13,14.
Quote:
Quote.
Christ was the Son of God since He was brought forth in the days of eternity
Unquote.
This makes you stand in line with David , which throws out the same idea, only John B . is the one here that dare to proceed further by giving an idea that Christ is not self existent , which stands against Tom E. view.
Very interesting, because at least I can came to a picture that there are two different personalities of the Godhead, one is God the Father, and one is the Son of God and the other one-the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God.
Should there be three personalities or just two , considering that the Holy Spirit is just the spirit of God the Father?
In His love
James S
I read that there are only two beings at creation, at redemption, at judgment.
Creation: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Genesis 1:26. "I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS" 1 Spiritual Gifts 17; also in Early Writings 145; emphasis in original.
Redemption: "Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD...and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zechariah 6:12,13. "Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father - one in nature, in character, in purpose - the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God." Patriarchs & Prophets 34.
Judgment: "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon...behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof....And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." Revelation 5:4-7. "Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." Great Controversy 643.
"Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son." Great Controversy 665. No third being.
Only two beings can receive praise and worship. "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." John 5:23.
Yes, all beings have a spirit. It is their mind, their way of thinking. James S. has a spirit, Gordon, Daryl, John B., Darius, - all have a spirit and their words reveal 'what manner of spirit they are of', as Jesus rebuked James and John in Luke 9:55. Jacob's heart fainted for he believed not the hopeful tale of his long lost son, but "when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived." Genesis 45:27.
"The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each." 8 Testimonies 268
"God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son." 8 Testimonies 268
After quoting John 17:20-23, Ellen White exclaims:
"Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one." 8 Testimonies 269. These quotations can also be found in Ministry of Healing 421,422.
She further describes the relation between Father and Son by quoting Zechariah 6:12,13 as mentioned above.
Great Light upon this subject is brought forth in 8 Testimonies 263-270; 'A Personal God' and Ministry of Healing 409-426; 'A True Knowledge of God'. John 17 lays plain the distinction between Father and Son, as does John's entire Gospel, carefully read.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3.
There is no reason for any to be ensnared by the Roman Catholic Trinity.
Gordon
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77349
07/29/06 11:41 PM
07/29/06 11:41 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Qoute
"The Scriptures are clear on the fact that Christ did not have a beginning.
Hebrews 7:3 “He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever.”
Why is Melchizedeck a type of Christ? Because he has neither beginning of days nor end of life. The fact that he doesn’t have beginning of days is made even more clear by the words “without father or mother or genealogy”. If Christ had been literally born of God, how could these words apply to Him?"
This is not speaking of Christ, There are to many places in the scriptures that plainly state that Christ was betgoten, brought forth from the Father and there are to many times that Christ calls himself "Son of God".
The verses that you qouted are of Melchizedeck or as the founders understood him to be the Holy Spirit of God. We know that the Holy Spirit came in the shape of the dove, flames and also Melchizedeck.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and as such he / it does not have a genealogy as we now it to be, nor does it have a mother and father. This fitst eh vereses that you qouted.
However, we know that Christ has a genealogy he is of the tribe of Juda and more importantly the Amighty Father. Christ has a mother earthly mother that is and a Heavenly Father and an earthly step father. So with this type of genealogy how could we say that these verses apply to him?
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77350
07/30/06 04:14 AM
07/30/06 04:14 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote
After quoting John 17:20-23, Ellen White exclaims:
"Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one." 8 Testimonies 269. These quotations can also be found in Ministry of Healing 421,422.
There is no reason for any to be ensnared by the Roman Catholic Trinity.
Gordon
Unquote.
Thus, we have two Gods, the Father and the Son, but they are One.
According to you, by believing this, are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77351
07/30/06 08:55 AM
07/30/06 08:55 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John, Quote:
If you check my posts, the birth that I have spoken of is not physical; but spiritual.
Physical or “spiritual”, this birth implies that Christ had a beginning.
Quote:
Hebrews 7 is establishing the priesthood of Melchisedec over the Levitical, and stating that Christ has no record or ancestry in Levi.
The passage is simply attesting that Christ is an eternal priest, who has neither beginning of days nor end of life.
Quote:
First gives you the “pre” over others; but ‘first’ over others in what? The part that follows gives the meaning. The way you have it is that he is pre-eminent in nothing, because you are dropping that which he is ‘first’ in.
Christ is superior to all creation, “for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” The text is very clear, isn’t it?
Notice that He is declared to be the firstborn of all creation, and the firstborn among (ek) the dead. He is not declared to be the firstborn among all creation.
Quote:
'arche' means beginning, first, as stated in Rev 3:14. This is true in Christ. 'archegos' could mean originator, which is not found in Rev 3:14.
In Greek, in English, or in Portuguese, “beginning” may mean a starting, or it may mean origin, source. When you say that God is the beginning of everything, what do you mean?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77352
07/30/06 08:57 AM
07/30/06 08:57 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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David, Quote:
The verses that you qouted are of Melchizedeck or as the founders understood him to be the Holy Spirit of God. We know that the Holy Spirit came in the shape of the dove, flames and also Melchizedeck.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and as such he / it does not have a genealogy as we now it to be, nor does it have a mother and father. This fitst eh vereses that you qouted.
However, we know that Christ has a genealogy he is of the tribe of Juda and more importantly the Amighty Father. Christ has a mother earthly mother that is and a Heavenly Father and an earthly step father. So with this type of genealogy how could we say that these verses apply to him?
Please, look at the text:
“Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.”
Melchizedeck is a type of Christ, not in His earthly life, because in His earthly life Christ was no priest, but in His divinity. In His humanity Christ had a mother, a genealogy, had beginning of days and end of life. But in His divinity Christ was without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life.
Of course the pioneers you speak of were wrong, for both the Bible (Gen. 14:18) and Ellen White declare that Melchizedek was a human being, the king of Salem, who was a type of Christ because there is no record of his birth or of his death, and because he was both a king and a priest. The Holy Spirit has never been the king of Salem, much less a priest.
“Upon his return from a successful military expedition, he [Abraham] was met by Melchizedek, ‘king of Salem, and priest of the most high God.’ This holy man blessed Abraham, in the name of the Lord, and the patriarch gave him tithes of all the spoils as a tribute of gratitude to the Ruler of nations.” {RH, May 16, 1882 par. 24}
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