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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77363
08/01/06 01:20 AM
08/01/06 01:20 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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John.
You have presented your idea very well and seem sound enough and logic, so far, I have no claims at all.
But one thing disturb me, following your line of thought, it comes to me that before the Son was brought forth, Almighty God was wandering all alone in eternity, a single God.
In this state, did he know what agape is?
Does not agape need an equal object to love? Without an equal object to love, agape does not exist.
If He didn’t know what agape is at the state of being alone, at that time He is just a selfish God , right?
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77364
08/01/06 01:51 AM
08/01/06 01:51 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Is there a need to take the Word of God apart to the point where we forget what is written in it? Or that we try with our FINITE minds try to understand time so far back that it is really beyond our ability to fathom?
Is it so hard to say, "thus saith the Lord"?
Does not the Bible in simple terms say that there is One God as the verse(s) clearly state?
We could pick it apart and break it down under microscopes all day long and never fully understand exactly when Christ was or how Christ was brought forth. In doing so we loose our bearing.
The Bible verses teach us that there is One God and One Lord Jesus Christ, whom when the governments are put on His shoulders by the One True God his Father then Christ will be called MIGHTY God, yes.
Is it so hard to comprehend that there is a Father / Son relationship and not some two equal god relationship? With the knowledge that there is this Father /Son relationship we see true love from both. We see how not only did Christ give something up in coming to this earth and going through what He did, but we see that the Father the God of Christ the One true God also gave up something so valuable to Him because He first love us He gave His Only BEGOTTEN Son to die in my place. The Father allowed His Son, His prefect Son, His loving Son in whom the Father found daily delight in to be separated from Him and to die a SINNERS death in my place. What was at stake in allowing this? What did the Father go through when the sins of the world where placed upon His Sons shoulders?
If they are either one god or two gods you will never find this kind of love. It is impossible in this triune god belief, for it cannot happen.
Has anyone read the Spirit of Prophecy volume 1 chapter 1? Does the Bible not teach us in the Book of Revelation the Christ was given His power, honor, and glory by His Father? Not only in Revelation but elsewhere in the Holy Word of God it teaches the same thing. Christ calls the One true God “His God our God”. If Christ is part of the triune god or if He is God the same as and equal to His Father by His own right then where did His Father bestow these things upon Him? There would be no need for He would already have it.
What is this “agape” stuff, God cannot love the way we do nor is it the same type of Love that He has for our love is tainted with sin, Lets not get confused there they are not the same.
We have been warned about using “intellectual philosophy” for this is the way of the Greeks.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77365
08/01/06 02:38 AM
08/01/06 02:38 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Further, ‘existence’ is another word/expression that is not found in the scriptures. Hence conveys an idea that is not scriptural.
Anytime we use a word/expression that is not found in the scriptures means that we are conveying an idea that is not scriptural?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77366
08/01/06 09:04 AM
08/01/06 09:04 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Further, ‘existence’ is another word/expression that is not found in the scriptures. Hence conveys an idea that is not scriptural.
Anytime we use a word/expression that is not found in the scriptures means that we are conveying an idea that is not scriptural?
If you are referring to the word "agape" there is no problem with the word or our understanding of it as it implies to us. However to say it is the same understanding of "love or agape" that God has I question. I do not think that we will fully understand what it means until we witness it for ourselves from the Father and the Son first hand at the second coming and for all eternity. Our understanding of "love or agape" has been jaded by years of satanic influence. Gods has not it is still a pure love.
Does that make since?
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77367
08/01/06 01:11 PM
08/01/06 01:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I was responding to a comment that John made in response to Ellen White's statement that Christ was "Jehovah, the self-existent One." I understood John to be saying that self-existence is not a scriptural concept because the word "existence" is not found in Scripture. It sounds like John is saying that if we use any word which is not in Scripture, then whatever idea we convey based on that word is not a scriptural idea. That's what the phrase I quoted appears to me to be saying: Quote:
Further, ‘existence’ is another word/expression that is not found in the scriptures. Hence conveys an idea that is not scriptural.
I was trying to get clarification regarding this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77368
08/02/06 12:35 AM
08/02/06 12:35 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
It sounds like John is saying that if we use any word which is not in Scripture, then whatever idea we convey based on that word is not a scriptural idea.
I guess I jumped or assumed some thoughts for the reader there.
Here are a couple of angles to your question:
In order that we arrive to truth and not presupposed understanding, we need to carefully examine our comprehension/thought. One principle that should be an early warning sign is if we use vocabulary that is not in the scripture. Sometimes the expression may be a synonym or a summary of many ideas. Then we must examine whether the content of these ideas are consistent with the scriptures.
The other point is what I call ‘crucial thought concepts’. ‘Crucial thought concepts’ are expressions used in doctrine that are defining doctrine in such a way that without those expressions one could not express the thought. Now, if such words/expressions are not found/used in scripture, yet they are crucial thought concepts in the doctrines they espouse; then those who wrote the scriptures did not think with these thought concepts.
The end result is that those thought concepts are not scriptural.
I think I clearly demonstrated that the thought presented in ‘self-existence’ or ‘existence’ does not convey a scriptural idea of ‘life’ or ‘eternal life’.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77369
08/02/06 03:01 AM
08/02/06 03:01 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
John.
You have presented your idea very well and seem sound enough and logic, so far, I have no claims at all.
But one thing disturb me, following your line of thought, it comes to me that before the Son was brought forth, Almighty God was wandering all alone in eternity, a single God.
In this state, did he know what agape is?
Does not agape need an equal object to love? Without an equal object to love, agape does not exist.
If He didn’t know what agape is at the state of being alone, at that time He is just a selfish God , right?
In His love
James S
I find this interesting; I have been asked this question by another good friend of mine. The question appears formidable, but upon examination self-destructs.
Quote:
Does not agape need an equal object to love? Without an equal object to love, agape does not exist.
No, agape most certainly does not need an equal object to love, and it does exist without an object to love.
First, the question of ‘equal’. What is the definition of equal? For example:
Are we equal to God?
Does God agape-love us?
But, we were made in his image, and in his likeness. So it depends on what equal means.
Second; agape requiring an object to love:
Agape exists in the heart of him who loves; it is not dependent on the object of its love.
Even in man’s fallen state; we can experience the longing of love for many years, without finding the object of love. When God created Adam; was love in Adam's heart before or after Eve was created?
Was not Eve created in answer to something awakened in Adam?
Why did God wait till a helpmeet was not found for Adam, before creating Eve?
So if love can exist in our heart, without the object of its love, then certainly God can also, for that is how God conceived it in man.
On the other hand, let us look at the trinity concept of ‘equal’ and agape-love.
The way the trinity doctrine presents ‘equal’ actually has the effect of destroying agape-love.
Does the fact that there is someone there (since they happen to be there, and you have no say in it) establish/assure the relationship of agape-love?
What if you have no choice; but just have to make do, and co-habit with them?
Can you love someone for whom you can do absolutely nothing, since they are ‘self-existent’?
Love involves the interaction of entering into the life of the other, in such a way that ‘self-existence’ is not possible.
Is agape-love possible where the relationship is not genuine, but only role-play?
One more angle is the angle of time and space.
To say that God could not be alone and be love is to say also that love could never create anything. For insomuch as anything is created, it would mean that before it was lacking. So the number cannot stop with 2, 3, 20 or trillion, or ‘zillion’. That concept goes back to the idea that nothing ever can transpire, or it would make the previous incomplete. Which means it is an idea based on a concept outside of time and space, which means, it is a concept outside of life as it is in God; which means there is no reality to it.
I do not know if I have put forth enough thoughts to reveal that Agape-love is very real while not dependent on the object of its love, and that there is a type of inequality/equality required for its expression; which allows for growth and progression.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77370
08/02/06 03:19 AM
08/02/06 03:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Does the concept of "self-existence" convey a Scriptural thought of any sort? (you said it is does not convey a Scriptural thought of life; I'm asking if it goes beyond this).
By saying that the thought is not Scriptural, are you saying simply that it is not in Scripture, or are you saying that it is contrary to Scripture? (I'm asking this because "not Scriptural" can be taken in these two different ways).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77371
08/02/06 08:04 AM
08/02/06 08:04 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
On the other hand, let us look at the trinity concept of ‘equal’ and agape-love.
The way the trinity doctrine presents ‘equal’ actually has the effect of destroying agape-love.
Does the fact that there is someone there (since they happen to be there, and you have no say in it) establish/assure the relationship of agape-love?
What if you have no choice; but just have to make do, and co-habit with them?
Can you love someone for whom you can do absolutely nothing, since they are ‘self-existent’?
Love involves the interaction of entering into the life of the other, in such a way that ‘self-existence’ is not possible.
Is agape-love possible where the relationship is not genuine, but only role-play?
Did you just prove that humans cannot possibly, are utterly inable to, agape love God?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77372
08/02/06 11:29 AM
08/02/06 11:29 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Did you just prove that humans cannot possibly, are utterly inable to, agape love God?
No, but what I did state several pages back is that 'self-existence' is not what makes God, God. So I'll clarify it further: 'self-existence' is not an attribute of God.
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