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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77393
08/05/06 03:53 AM
08/05/06 03:53 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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May I ask a question?
What is there that Sister White wrote that goes contrary to the Scriptures?
Would you please give me a few examples and incudle book and page of these things.
Thank you
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77394
08/06/06 01:46 AM
08/06/06 01:46 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
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Unselfish love I believe could only exist and experienced when there is some one to love, when there is an object to love, to make this object happy.
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It takes unselfish love to create one capable of that love. But it can only find expression in the creation of, and ongoing relationship.
Unquote.
Could the God of the Moslem create unselfish living creatures? Why that all I learn about is selfish love? But I do not wonder, because without an object to love, unselfish love I believe does not exist.
When our God was all alone, before bringing forth the Son, whom would He love except His own? Is this not selfish love?
Or, does our God, even being alone, before bringing forth the Son, has the principle of agape in his? Does: “God is love” an original attribute of God?
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77395
08/06/06 02:51 AM
08/06/06 02:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, I'm not trying to establish hypothetical rules. I'm reasonsing to a conclusion based on what you've said.
You've stated Ellen White has said things diametrically opposed to Scripture. Assuming there's nothing in Scripture diametrically opposed to Scripture, then there's a difference between Ellen White's inspiration and the Bible Writer's. I took note that you didn't say our understanding of what Ellen White said was wrong, but that what she said was wrong.
The other question relates to the logic you were using to establish that Ellen White's comments were opposed to Scripture. You argued like this:
a.She used language which is not in Scritpure.
b.Using that language, she expressed a concept which cannot be expressed by the language in Scripture.
c.Therefore what she stated was contrary to Scripture.
To extrapolate this would suggest that the above points would apply to anyone, not just Ellen White. So they should also apply to Paul, Peter, James and John, assuming they expressed any concepts which cannot be expressed by the language of the Old Testament. Similarly if Daniel or Jeremiah or David, assuming they expressed any concepts which cannot be expressed by the language of Deuteronomy.
This doesn't appear to me to be a principle which makes sense. If I'm misunderstanding your point somewhere along the line, I await clarification.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77396
08/08/06 01:49 AM
08/08/06 01:49 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Could the God of the Moslem create unselfish living creatures? Why that all I learn about is selfish love?
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Quote:
Or, does our God, even being alone, before bringing forth the Son, have the principle of agape in him? Is “God is love” an original attribute of God?
The record of God’s first work tells us that it was a work of Love; as it is clearly revealed in the work he had made. The fact that God did create a being that was able to appreciate and love that agape-love. That he was able to create so shown that it was in his heart. One that did not have it in his heart could have never conceived to create that ability.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77397
08/08/06 02:31 AM
08/08/06 02:31 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Tom, I had assumed that scriptures were an accepted reference point; since that is in question I have opened a new thread where perhaps we can deal with it. It is a distraction in this thread.
From the first moment you questioned using scripture as reference point, I have changed the reference point to the one you were trying to establish and to the content itself, and have stated that crucial thought concepts define their own reality. They speak for themselves. They are paradigms.
"I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe.
That is a crucial thought concept; this crucial though concept declares the “Law of life” for the universe; not the law of life for this world only, or for the fallen world; but the Law of Life for the universe. This Law of Life is the Life as is in God. It is not an arbitrary or temporary Law. It is the life as it is in God. This life is irreconcilably contrary to self-existence, and establishes that self-existence is sin. Love and self-existence are mutually exclusive.
These are two irreconcilable paradigms.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77398
08/08/06 03:44 AM
08/08/06 03:44 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, taking Ellen White out of the picture still doesn't answer my question, which has to do with the methodology you are suggesting, as I understand it. You rejected what she wrote (forget it was her, assume it was anybody) because she used language which is not in Scripture to communicate a concept which cannot be communicated apart from that language. This is what I have understood your position to be.
I sought to clarify further by asking if a crucial thought concept communicated in language not found in Scripture was simply non-Scripture or if it was contrary to Scripture, and understood you to say it was the latter.
It seems to me that this methodology is not tenable, because if it were, then if there are any crucial thought concepts in Revelation which are not in the rest of Scripture, they would have be to be rejected, and similarly for the rest of the books all the way back to Job.
The question has to do with the way one understands how inspiration works, which is not clear to me. I guess you're right that this has gotten off the original topic of the thread, so I'll cross post this here and on the other thread you started, and you can respond whereever you think best.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77399
08/08/06 04:04 AM
08/08/06 04:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
From the first moment you questioned using scripture as reference point.
I didn't do this. I questioned your understanding of inspiration in regards to Ellen White.
Rule 5 states:
Quote:
You must also either believe in or respect one of those 28 fundamental beliefs regarding Ellen G White as a messenger of God for both her time and our time.
Given that you are regular poster to this forum, it is natural for me to assume you would accept here as described here. It is still not clear to me what your view regarding her is, even though I have asked you for clarification regarding this several times.
The fact that I am interested in your thoughts regarding her and inspiration in no way suggests that I am questioning using Scripture as a reference point. That's entirely unwarranted.
I re-read every post I made in this thread, and do not see anywhere where I questioned using Scripture as a reference point. I see that I quoted two SDA's, one Waggoner and the other Ellen White.
Regarding Waggoner you wrote:
Quote:
Waggoner’s arguments in that matter are not sound as they are not based on the revelation of scriptures, but on man’s concept of God. He does not present scripture to show his position; but asserts an interpretation.
I don't know how to respond to this. One could just as easily assert the same things about what you have written. These are just gratuitous asssertions. They certainly appeared to me to be based on the revelation of the Scriptures. He quoted Scripture, explained what he thought it meant, and why. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
I'm going to cross post this one too.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77400
08/08/06 06:07 PM
08/08/06 06:07 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Rule 5 states:
You must also either believe in or respect one of those 28 fundamental beliefs regarding Ellen G White as a messenger of God for both her time and our time.
Therefore it is inappropriate to question the point, as it is not an option of discussion.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77401
08/08/06 06:16 PM
08/08/06 06:16 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
I re-read every post I made in this thread, and do not see anywhere where I questioned using Scripture as a reference point.
You simply did not accept the scripture as reference point by not dealing with the content of the statement; but changed the issue to inspiration of person, as if inspiration of person would make the difference.
Tom you have not commented on these statements: This is what the discussion is about. If you wish, feel free to comment on this.
"I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe.
That is a crucial thought concept; this crucial though concept declares the “Law of life” for the universe; not the law of life for this world only, or for the fallen world; but the Law of Life for the universe. This Law of Life is the Life as is in God. It is not an arbitrary or temporary Law. It is the life as it is in God. This life is irreconcilably contrary to self-existence, and establishes that self-existence is sin. Love and self-existence are mutually exclusive.
‘Crucial thought concepts’ define their own reality. They speak for themselves.
I will not comment further to your questions on inspiration on this thread.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77402
08/09/06 02:51 AM
08/09/06 02:51 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Regarding what you wrote about "self," I agree with what you wrote in the sense of understanding "self" as a negative principle. But the sense of "self-existence," as Ellen White used it is not dealing with the issues you are talking about.
Whether or how EW used ‘self-existent Son of God’ we cannot tell; because I am not aware of any record that anyone ever asked her and/or that she explained it. That is a very remarkable fact especially considering the view of the pioneers. However we can see how it is used today and what the obvious meaning of the expression is; thus being used to deny: his being the Son of the Father and every other aspect of his life and death.
The argument presented in DA21 denies self-existence in any possible perception.
"I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe.
Quote:
Let's take things from your point of view. I would assume you think only God (the Father) has existed forever. Is God self-existent?
I have stated before that self-existence is not an attribute of God.
Quote:
This is simply addressing the question of whether there was a time when God did not exist, or if God was dependent upon another in order to exist.
I understand your point; but when defining doctrine, it is an awfully misleading concept to use, and the Son of God does depend upon the Father in order to live (as quoted above).
Quote:
The principle that God was not created by another being is one which does exist in Scripture, and can be expressed in Scriptural language, and is equivalent in meaning to the phrase "self-existent" as I perceive Ellen White was using the term.
However, the principle that the Son is begotten of the Father and received his life from the Father is also very self-evident, and is expressed in the scriptures; and therefore ‘self-existent’ is contradictory to the concept, establishing that he is not the Son of the Father.
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