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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77403
08/14/06 02:37 AM
08/14/06 02:37 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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John.
So there is no co-equal Gods that make a triune in heaven.
There is only one Almighty God the Father, His one and only begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit.
It is wrong to pray to Jesus, it is wrong to pray to the Holy Spirit, the right way is only to pray to the Father in Jesus name.
I think this is the correct acceptance of the Godhead without breaking the 1st commandment.
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77404
08/14/06 04:59 PM
08/14/06 04:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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1.This is the EGW statement: Quote:
Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin.
The context makes it clear that she was not disputing that this was true (i.e. that Christ is "the self-existent One")
2.Wouldn't the "law of the universe" apply to God as well?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77405
08/14/06 06:16 PM
08/14/06 06:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
John.
So there is no co-equal Gods that make a triune in heaven.
There is only one Almighty God the Father, His one and only begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit.
It is wrong to pray to Jesus, it is wrong to pray to the Holy Spirit, the right way is only to pray to the Father in Jesus name.
I think this is the correct acceptance of the Godhead without breaking the 1st commandment.
In His love
James S
Yes, and no!! Your second line is correct, tho' it is "their Spirit" - not just the Father's. The Father and Son are co-equal in and as the Godhead - firstly possessing the Godhead (divine nature) and also the Godhead is a group word.
Tom and I differ with John about Jesus being the Father's begotten Son from before creation after his argument in this thread. I'm not sure if he holds the same view anyway.
Your third line has to change, too, to include praying to Jesus, since Jesus said to pray through himself to the Father. The Spirit intercedes in our praying to improve our prayers, but we pray to Father and his Son.
Since Jesus and 'God' both possess divinity, the God of the 1st Commandment is that one divinity shared between them and encompasses Father and Son, both personally in the fulness of the Godhead.
That should also prevent breaking the first commandment, which the trinity doctrine has a probable problem with, as you suggested to start with.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77406
08/15/06 02:52 AM
08/15/06 02:52 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
So there is no co-equal Gods that make a triune in heaven.
That is true.
Quote:
There is only one Almighty God the Father, His one and only begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit.
It is wrong to pray to Jesus, it is wrong to pray to the Holy Spirit, the right way is only to pray to the Father in Jesus name.
I think this is the correct acceptance of the Godhead without breaking the 1st commandment.
The key to understanding the truth meaningfully is in the relationship as revealed in the life of Christ; the testimony of the Father and of the Son. This relationship is the life which is in the Godhead, and it is the relationship to which we are called. Our understanding of that relationship as revealed in the life of Christ is vital to our ability to participate in it. This relationship comes about by birth; spiritual birth; being born of the Father’s spirit.
So now we need to consider the oneness that exists in the Godhead. It is not a oneness of person, or of unique physics, or of self-existence. It is not a oneness of co-equality. Rather it is a oneness to which we are called to be a part of.
Christ’s mission and prayer reveals two purposes which work together for the same end.
One is John 17:3; that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The other is John 17:21-23; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:… I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
The revelation of the Father and the Son is for that very purpose to reveal to us the relationship, which is that eternal life to which we are called and which is the eternal life.
He also reveals the means in Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
To this end Christ’s testimony of the means by which he lives is vital to us; as it reveals the means by which we may live. The point is that it is the truth; the reality; the eternal life. It is not just a demo, a role, a play. It is the reality of the life which was from the beginning with the Father and was revealed to us;
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
So, all this was revealed so that we also may enter into that fellowship/relationship with the Father and with his Son, which is life eternal.
So when we pray “in the name of Christ”; we are not praying “nominative”, but rather we are to come as sons; in the spirit of the Son; the faith of Jesus. That is what it means to pray in the name of Jesus. To come as sons we need the faith of the Son; we need to receive the Son into our hearts. Thus we pray Abba; Father.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77407
08/15/06 03:02 AM
08/15/06 03:02 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
2.Wouldn't the "law of the universe" apply to God as well?
"I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe.
The law of the universe presented in these words reveals that the Father is the source and the Son is the channel. It is in this 'flow of life' that the “law of life” for the universe is depicted.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77408
08/15/06 03:07 AM
08/15/06 03:07 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Tom and I differ with John about Jesus being the Father's begotten Son from before creation after his argument in this thread. I'm not sure if he holds the same view anyway.
I am not sure what you are saying; but I did say that Christ is firstborn of all creation, and born before all creation.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77409
08/15/06 04:39 AM
08/15/06 04:39 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
John.
So there is no co-equal Gods that make a triune in heaven.
There is only one Almighty God the Father, His one and only begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit.
It is wrong to pray to Jesus, it is wrong to pray to the Holy Spirit, the right way is only to pray to the Father in Jesus name.
I think this is the correct acceptance of the Godhead without breaking the 1st commandment.
In His love
James S
Yes, and no!! Your second line is correct, tho' it is "their Spirit" - not just the Father's. The Father and Son are co-equal in and as the Godhead - firstly possessing the Godhead (divine nature) and also the Godhead is a group word.
Tom and I differ with John about Jesus being the Father's begotten Son from before creation after his argument in this thread. I'm not sure if he holds the same view anyway.
Your third line has to change, too, to include praying to Jesus, since Jesus said to pray through himself to the Father. The Spirit intercedes in our praying to improve our prayers, but we pray to Father and his Son.
Since Jesus and 'God' both possess divinity, the God of the 1st Commandment is that one divinity shared between them and encompasses Father and Son, both personally in the fulness of the Godhead.
That should also prevent breaking the first commandment, which the trinity doctrine has a probable problem with, as you suggested to start with.
Colin:
Was the God who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth (giving us an example) the "divinity shared between the Father and the Son"?
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77410
08/15/06 04:52 AM
08/15/06 04:52 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Since Jesus and 'God' both possess divinity, the God of the 1st Commandment is that one divinity shared between them and encompasses Father and Son, both personally in the fulness of the Godhead.
That should also prevent breaking the first commandment, which the trinity doctrine has a probable problem with, as you suggested to start with.
Jesus Christ lived a perfect life without sin. Correct?
Jesus Christ gave us an example to follow. Correct?
Who was the God that Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
Was it a Unity of three co-eternal persons? Was it a trinity? Was it a divine nature? Was it a divinity or a divine nature shared between the Father and the Son?
Was it God the Son? Was it God the Holy Spirit?
Or was it God the Father?
Would I be transgressing the 1st commandment if I worshipped someone or something other than who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77411
08/15/06 03:20 PM
08/15/06 03:20 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Tom and I differ with John about Jesus being the Father's begotten Son from before creation after his argument in this thread. I'm not sure if he holds the same view anyway.
I am not sure what you are saying; but I did say that Christ is firstborn of all creation, and born before all creation.
Glad to hear you say it; you did argue earlier that "self-existence" precluded the Son of God from being the begotten Son of the Father, unless I misread you. What I was saying that you're not sure about is whether you have said this elsewhere, about the Son of God and his begottenness. That's all.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77412
08/15/06 03:50 PM
08/15/06 03:50 PM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote.
Yes, and no!! Your second line is correct, tho' it is "their Spirit" - not just the Father's. The Father and Son are co-equal in and as the Godhead - firstly possessing the Godhead (divine nature) and also the Godhead is a group word.
Unquote.
Firstly, it is about “their Spirit”, as you had said.
Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son too? Or do they have either an own Spirit and the One who is called the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father?
Secondly, if They are co-equal in and as the Godhead, why I didn’t see it so?
“Yet for us there is but one God , the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live ; and there is but one Lord , Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live Are you sure? .”
1 Corinthians 8:6.
The Father is our God, the Source of all things. The Son is our Lord, trough whom came all things. Here I see that all things came from God the Father through our Lord the Son, and we live for God through the Lord.
Quote.
Your third line has to change, too, to include praying to Jesus, since Jesus said to pray through himself to the Father. The Spirit intercedes in our praying to improve our prayers, but we pray to Father and his Son.
Unquote.
Are you sure?
I think we pray to the Father, the focus is the Father in Jesus name. We don’t pray to Jesus in His name, or we pray to Jesus in the Father's name.
Through the Son we ask things to the Father and not vice versa, and the Father replies through the Son. Through the Son “all blessings” come to us, and not vice versa.
In His love
James S
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