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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77423
08/17/06 10:39 PM
08/17/06 10:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
If Christ is in us, which is by His Spirit, how about the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the Father? Or is the Holy Spirit the same Spirit which belongs to the Father and the Son? Do they share the same Spirit or do they have their own individual Spirit?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
So they both come to dwell in us.
Quote:
You said that the Son is born from the Spirit of the Father, does it means that the Son has his own Spirit? Do they have individual independent Spirit or one?
You said we, human, have our own spirit and just can become the sons of God if we received and lived after the Holy Spirit. Does this apply to the Son?
Yes. The Son of God is begotten of the Father in the same way that we are called to be born of God. Every person has their own spirit; that is what makes them a person. If Christ did not have his own spirit then there would be no son, and that which is Christ would simply be an extension of the Father’s person. We are called to be conformed to Christ, to a birth as his, so that he may be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The holy spirit is the spirit of the Father. Christ was born of the Father’s spirit by faith. The Father dwells in him by his spirit; this does not obliterate the spirit of Christ, just as it does not obliterate our spirit, but it does change our spirit.
...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
There is an “I” and a “thou”, and thus a “we”.
Luk 23:46 … he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
It is a relationship of two persons. It is the Son who by faith and love abides in the Father, and the Father who by Love and grace abides in the Son.
Quote:
John: So when we pray “in the name of Christ”; we are not praying “nominative”, but rather we are to come as sons; in the spirit of the Son ; the faith of Jesus. That is what it means to pray in the name of Jesus. To come as sons we need the faith of the Son; we need to receive the Son into our hearts. Thus we pray Abba; Father.
James: I think by the quote above, you have answered my questions, that Jesus has his own Spirit. So, who is called the Holy Spirit? Who did come upon Christ’ disciples at Pentecost day? The Holy Spirit which is of the Father or of the Son?
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
While this is speaking of the outpouring of the holy spirit rather than of being born of the holy spirit; it is nevertheless evident that Christ receives the holy spirit from the Father. Having been made a mediator; he mediates to us the Father’s spirit. It is also evident that the Father dwells in the Son. So in Christ we have the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
What that mediatory work means is: that the enmity of our hearts and minds has estranged us from the Father; we are in need of the faith of the Son; the spirit of the Son; which is Christ’s spirit (mind and attitude) towards the Father; the way he abides in the Father. So in receiving Christ, we receive his spirit which sets us right towards the Father so that we receive the Father in our hearts as he does. This is the mediatory work of Christ. This is what it means that no one can come unto the Father but through the Son; Yet the Father draws us to the Son so that we can become Sons. Thus he is the way and the door. But he does not so minister to bring us to himself but to the Father, so that the Father may be all in all.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77424
08/18/06 02:18 AM
08/18/06 02:18 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote.
What that mediatory work means is: that the enmity of our hearts and minds has estranged us from the Father; we are in need of the faith of the Son; the spirit of the Son; which is Christ’s spirit (mind and attitude) towards the Father; the way he abides in the Father. So in receiving Christ, we receive his spirit which sets us right towards the Father so that we receive the Father in our hearts as he does. This is the mediatory work of Christ. This is what it means that no one can come unto the Father but through the Son; Yet the Father draws us to the Son so that we can become Sons. Thus he is the way and the door. But he does not so minister to bring us to himself but to the Father, so that the Father may be all in all.
Unquote.
Very clear, you had answered all my questions; I understand your view and think I might agree with that.
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77425
08/18/06 02:23 AM
08/18/06 02:23 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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John.
You said:
It takes unselfish love to create one capable of that love. But it can only find expression in the creation of, and ongoing relationship
I asked:
Or, does our God, even being alone, before bringing forth the Son, has the principle of agape in his? Does: “God is love” an original attribute of God?
You replied:
The record of God’s first work tells us that it was a work of Love; as it is clearly revealed in the work he had made. The fact that God did create a being that was able to appreciate and love that agape-love. That he was able to create so shown that it was in his heart. One that did not have it in his heart could have never conceived to create that ability.
Unquote.
Again, I must admit that you are right, and I must change my view that I hold for years. That God is love, being all alone he is still God of love, agape is his original attribute, which by it he could create unselfish beings with the same agape love in their hearts.
Why the Moslem’s do not have a God that love because by rejecting the Son of God they have no idea who the God of heaven is, and so creating their own god.
Thanks for your very explicit presentation of this subject; it might give a new way of thinking to many people in regards of Trinity doctrine.
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77426
08/18/06 09:28 PM
08/18/06 09:28 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Why the Moslem’s do not have a God that love because by rejecting the Son of God they have no idea who the God of heaven is, and so creating their own god.
The Moslems do not know about the Son of God, even as many ‘Christians’ do not know the Son of God; therefore they have no idea of the Father. The trinity doctrine imposes un-understandable concepts of God which destroy the Father-Son relationship and cannot be related in any way to our life; hence God remains a mystery, and man remains separated from God.
I have spoken with friends who have been born and raised in Moslem Countries. After having shared the gospel with them, they have exclaimed: “If the Moslems would hear this, they would have no problems receiving it; it is the doctrine of the trinity that they cannot accept”.
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
May God bless you and keep you till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77427
08/18/06 10:08 PM
08/18/06 10:08 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Colin: I'm still happy to use 'self-existing' for God and Jesus, but I resist "co-existent" given the Son's begotten Sonship.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 7:28 … and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Christ most pointedly denies “self-existence”. He lines out his life in no uncertain terms; and he does this for the purpose that we might believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Moreover he tells us that the enemy of Souls is one that is self-existent; one that lives of self.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The concept of “self-existence” has by its very nature the element of sin. Self-existence is a lie; self-existence is death. The Godhead’s holiness is Eternal life. Eternal life and self-existence are irreconcilably at enmity. Self-existence is anti-scripture, anti-gospel, anti-life, anti-truth, anti-love, anti-God, and anti-Christ.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
What things were written? Christ did not speak of his life in vain; he did not tell us of his relationship to the Father for nothing. He revealed his life for the very purpose that we might let go of ‘self’ and take hold of his life, that we might know what it means to be a Son and thus know the Father; that we might pass from death unto life.
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
We cannot hold “self-existence” and have fellowship with Christ or the Father. Let us take hold of “Eternal life”.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77428
08/20/06 03:49 AM
08/20/06 03:49 AM
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OP
Charter Member
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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So, John, what is the conclusion of your ideas here?
That we have indeed three Gods but not co-equal, or two Gods co-equal and one God not or one God only ?
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77429
08/20/06 06:14 PM
08/20/06 06:14 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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How can someone believe that they were created by a creature? How can someone believe that the Creator is a creature? This is simply absurd.
Besides, worshiping a higher God and a lesser "god" is bitheism.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77430
08/20/06 06:52 PM
08/20/06 06:52 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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1 Cor 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
John 14:24 “He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me”
John 14:10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
Prov 8:30 speaking of Christ, “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;”
How hard is it to believe that Christ is the “Son” of God and that by His being the Son of God he has inherited not only glory, honor, power etc (Revelation chapter 5) Christ also inherited a name that is above all other names and that is the name of His Father, we call His Father “God”.
Isa 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
Notice that this child was born. Christ was born of Mary. A child was given, Christ gave His Life and God allowed this sacrifice to take place because He first loved us.
And lastly we have special names given to Christ the Son of God when the government is given and placed upon His shoulders. When the New Jerusalem comes to the earth and the earth is made new and the father finishes these words to His son “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” Ps 110:1 then these names will be His to take and they are then given unto Him as well.
Have all three things happened yet? No, they have not; two of the three is not good enough.
Christ is the express image of His Father and in the garden the Father said to His Son “let us” make man in our image. The Father Himself then went and made man in “His image” Not their image but in His image.
Many would like to say that the Hebrew word used here “Elohim” or “Elohiem” denote the plurality of God or part of the “trinity”. And that this word means there is more than one God. However, this same word is also used when referring to judges of the children of Israel and we know that they are not nor were they gods.
We know that from Revelation chapter 5 that not only did the Father receive praise and worship but so did His Son. However, the 4 and 20 elders and the 4 beasts turned back and continued worshipping the ONE who lives forever and ever, who is this, none other but the Father.
Much has been being said about a quote from the book called “the desire of ages”. In this book there is a quote from Sister White (why do people in the SDA church not refer to her or her husband Sister or Brother White when talking about them?) may have written stating that Christ was or has or is “self-existence” or life un-borrowed”.
Could Christ have life that is self-existent? Yes, the Father could have given Him this life could he not? Could Christ not have life un-borrowed? Again I would have to say yes, moreover, could the Father who is all-powerful not have given such to His only begotten Son?
Is it to hard to accept that there is only One God and that is the Father of Christ? What did Christ say in John 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
It is interesting that Christ calls His Father “God” and at the same time Christ tells us that His Father, His God is Our GOD and our Father. Why is it so hard to accept this as a “plain thus saith the Lord”.
Why do people want to hold on for dear life to a pagan / catholic doctrine that is not grounded in the scriptures? I cannot understand why. It was easy enough for the founders of this church not to hold on to a pagan / catholic doctrine why is it so hard for SDA’s today to let go of what the founders never excepted as a scriptural teachings?
If we worship any other gods other than the One True God, the Father of Christ than we are breaking the Commandment that has been set in stone and even before the stone tablets where made.
Has anyone read a book called “What our founders believed?” If you want a copy I could send it to you or tell you where to get a copy.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77431
08/20/06 08:21 PM
08/20/06 08:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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EGW didn't say that Christ had in Him life that was self-existent, but referred to Him as "Jehovah, the self-existent One." The idea is not that He had life in Him which was self-existent, but that He was self-existent (i.e., His existence did not depend upon another).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77432
08/20/06 08:51 PM
08/20/06 08:51 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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Your selection of Bible quotes are interesting and good. Your other questions and points are good and not so good. Quote:
How hard is it to believe that Christ is the “Son” of God and that by His being the Son of God he has inherited not only glory, honor, power etc (Revelation chapter 5) Christ also inherited a name that is above all other names and that is the name of His Father, we call His Father “God”.
All good and true, when one accepts that "Son of God" is literally true and not just a term of endearment. Also most of what you say above here happened before sin started, not after sin is eradicated or after the Ascension.
Quote:
Christ is the express image of His Father and in the garden the Father said to His Son “let us” make man in our image. The Father Himself then went and made man in “His image” Not their image but in His image.
Here you must remind yourself that the Word of God is credited in Jn 1 with creating everything there is that is created, not the Father...
The divinity of Christ isn't borrowed, derived or unoriginal, else gifting the saints eternal life isn't a genuine, divine gift! That's the point in EGW's Signs of the Times comment in 1897(?). Still, in EGW's writing he is unshakeably the only begotten Son and God next to his Father who is God over all. Do YOU accept that the Father and his only begotten Son are of the Godhead individually, as father and son, and both divine & worthy of worship?
Yes, I'm familiar with "What our founders believed", but you need to favour the pioneers' position against current thinking to like that book...don't you - or does it just start you thinking in favour of the pioneers teachings?
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