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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77413
08/15/06 03:53 PM
08/15/06 03:53 PM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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John.
Quote.
He also reveals the means in Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them , and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
Unquote.
If Christ is in us, which is by His Spirit , how about the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the Father? Or is the Holy Spirit the same Spirit which belongs to the Father and the Son? Do they share the same Spirit or do they have their own individual Spirit ?
You said that the Son is born from the Spirit of the Father, does it means that the Son has his own Spirit? Do they have individual independent Spirit or one?
You said we, human, have our own spirit and just can become the sons of God if we received and lived after the Holy Spirit. Does this apply to the Son?
Quote.
So when we pray “in the name of Christ”; we are not praying “nominative”, but rather we are to come as sons; in the spirit of the Son ; the faith of Jesus. That is what it means to pray in the name of Jesus. To come as sons we need the faith of the Son; we need to receive the Son into our hearts. Thus we pray Abba; Father.
Unquote.
I think by the quote above, you have answered my questions, that Jesus has his own Spirit. So, who is called the Holy Spirit? Who did come upon Christ’ disciples at Pentecost day? The Holy Spirit which is of the Father or of the Son?
In His love
James S.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77414
08/15/06 04:00 PM
08/15/06 04:00 PM
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Since Jesus and 'God' both possess divinity, the God of the 1st Commandment is that one divinity shared between them and encompasses Father and Son, both personally in the fulness of the Godhead.
That should also prevent breaking the first commandment, which the trinity doctrine has a probable problem with, as you suggested to start with.
Jesus Christ lived a perfect life without sin. Correct?
Jesus Christ gave us an example to follow. Correct?
Who was the God that Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
God the Father.
Quote:
Was it a Unity of three co-eternal persons? Was it a trinity? Was it a divine nature? Was it a divinity or a divine nature shared between the Father and the Son?
Was it God the Son? Was it God the Holy Spirit?
Or was it God the Father?
As above: The Father is all the fulness of the Godhead concealed from mortal sight. The Son is all the fulness of the Godhead manifested. All your various questions here are for trinitarians: I'm not one. The divinity of the Godhead is possessed by the divine personalities but is not active by itself...thankfully.
The Spirit - Spirit of the Father & Son - isn't to be worshipped, but we worship both Father and Son and the Father is above all.
Quote:
Would I be transgressing the 1st commandment if I worshipped someone or something other than who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
No, no transgression of the 1st commandment to worship the one who said to worship his Father.  
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77415
08/15/06 04:07 PM
08/15/06 04:07 PM
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OP
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Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote.
Would I be transgressing the 1st commandment if I worshipped someone or something other than who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
Unquote.
Surely not! But how about if I worshipped The Son of God as co-equal with God the Father, do I transgress the 1st commandment?
Who did give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai?
“ I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt , out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me?” Lev. 20:1.
It was The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, right?
According to this commandment, is Christ, the Lord our God the One we should worship, and having no other “gods” before Him does it include God the Father? Or just “other gods” is means to idols, dead gods created by men?
In His love
James s.
Last edited by James Saptenno; 08/15/06 04:09 PM.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77416
08/16/06 01:56 PM
08/16/06 01:56 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
By John: So now we need to consider the oneness that exists in the Godhead. It is not a oneness of person, or of unique physics, or of self-existence. It is not a oneness of co-equality.
Another divergence with Ellen White:
“It was to save the transgressor from ruin that he who was co-equal with God, offered up his life on Calvary.” {RH, June 28, 1892 par. 3}
Quote:
By Dr. Glenn: Would I be transgressing the 1st commandment if I worshipped someone or something other than who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
If this is a transgression, Jesus sanctioned the transgression of God’s law by accepting the worship of others.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77417
08/16/06 02:02 PM
08/16/06 02:02 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
By John: So now we need to consider the oneness that exists in the Godhead. It is not a oneness of person, or of unique physics, or of self-existence. It is not a oneness of co-equality.
Another divergence with Ellen White:
“It was to save the transgressor from ruin that he who was co-equal with God, offered up his life on Calvary.” {RH, June 28, 1892 par. 3}
Quote:
By Dr. Glenn: Would I be transgressing the 1st commandment if I worshipped someone or something other than who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?
If this is a transgression, Jesus sanctioned the transgression of God’s law by accepting the worship of others.
Roseangela:
If the Father told me to worship his Son and I did what He told me, would that be transgressing the 1st commandment?
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77418
08/16/06 11:27 PM
08/16/06 11:27 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
I am not sure what you are saying; but I did say that Christ is firstborn of all creation, and born before all creation.
Glad to hear you say it; you did argue earlier that "self-existence" precluded the Son of God from being the begotten Son of the Father, unless I misread you. What I was saying that you're not sure about is whether you have said this elsewhere, about the Son of God and his begotten ness. That's all.
That is correct. Self-existence precludes the possibility of Christ being the Son of the Father. Christ has a beginning and he is not self-existent. He is the Son of God begotten of the Father, hence not self-existent. So I have argued against self-existence so that Christ could be the Son of the Father. Self-existence also denies the gospel.
If you have more questions on this thought I suggest you go back in this thread and read over the posts.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77419
08/17/06 12:50 PM
08/17/06 12:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I am not sure what you are saying; but I did say that Christ is firstborn of all creation, and born before all creation.
Glad to hear you say it; you did argue earlier that "self-existence" precluded the Son of God from being the begotten Son of the Father, unless I misread you. What I was saying that you're not sure about is whether you have said this elsewhere, about the Son of God and his begotten ness. That's all.
That is correct. Self-existence precludes the possibility of Christ being the Son of the Father. Christ has a beginning and he is not self-existent. He is the Son of God begotten of the Father, hence not self-existent. So I have argued against self-existence so that Christ could be the Son of the Father. Self-existence also denies the gospel.
If you have more questions on this thought I suggest you go back in this thread and read over the posts.
No more questions, just a different view point: since the Son of God is the Word of God, Jn 5:26 is just one text backed by the first few pages of PP chapter 1: the Son of God was authorised by his Father with the name of God and to receive worship as the Son of God, and to represent his Father away from their throne.
The Godhead's holiness enables self-existence, but both are primary attributes, given divine creatorship and what I wrote above.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77420
08/17/06 10:05 PM
08/17/06 10:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
The Godhead's holiness enables self-existence
I think I see how you use it.
Self-existence carries a connotation which is antagonistic to the Gospel, and has bred the concept that Christ is not Son of God.
The Godhead's holiness is 'eternal life' or as you say enables 'eternal life'.
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77421
08/17/06 10:36 PM
08/17/06 10:36 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
Roseangela:
If the Father told me to worship his Son and I did what He told me, would that be transgressing the 1st commandment?
Dr. Glenn,
Your question had been: “Would I be transgressing the 1st commandment if I worshipped someone or something other than who Jesus worshiped when he was here on earth?”
What is your answer to that question?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77422
08/17/06 10:52 PM
08/17/06 10:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
The Godhead's holiness enables self-existence
I think I see how you use it.
Self-existence carries a connotation which is antagonistic to the Gospel, and has bred the concept that Christ is not Son of God.
The Godhead's holiness is 'eternal life' or as you say enables 'eternal life'.
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Yes, I think we appear to agree here. Even God's eternity isn't a primary aspect about him and his Son. Because trinitarian Adventism has so many attributes about the Father and the Son, they lose sight of both of them in their attributes: holiness must be foundational to who God is, and other facets about the Godhead line up behind that as describing active holiness.
Yes, Adventist trinitarianism goes against its church founders by insisting for other reasons than you propose that the Son of God isn't the actual Son after all, but a title bearer. Worse than sad for them and us all. I'm still happy to use 'self-existing' for God and Jesus, but I resist "co-existent" given the Son's begotten Sonship. Co-existent renders them the same age - ie. co-eval, and that isn't scriptural, I'm afraid.  
Last edited by Colin; 08/17/06 10:54 PM.
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