Quote "Yes, I'm familiar with "What our founders believed", but you need to favour the pioneers' position against current thinking to like that book...don't you - or does it just start you thinking in favour of the pioneers teachings?" end quote

You are correct; one must favor the founders to really like the book. However, I have seen those who did not know what the founders even believed, and have been amazed, as well as those who were “die hard” Trinitarians.

It can be taken and received or rejected, however, the truth is the truth.

Peace and Grace
David

Quote “All good and true, when one accepts that "Son of God" is literally true and not just a term of endearment. Also most of what you say above here happened before sin started, not after sin is eradicated or after the Ascension.” End quote

Correct the truth that Christ is the “Son” of the Living God has got to be believed literally to really understand what it means. Unfortunately, it has become just a term of endearment, how sad.

Also, the part that I stated “How hard is it to believe that Christ is the “Son” of God and that by His being the Son of God he has inherited not only glory, honor, power etc (Revelation chapter 5)” here is stated when Christ opened the Seven Seals from the Book which He took out of the fathers right hand.

I do believe that He already was given these things prior to sin from His Father. Moreover here in Revelation 5 we see the reaction of the 24 elders to what they beheld when Christ took the seals and opened it where no other man anywhere could do. And this was after His Ascension.

Peace and Grace
David

I have been told that from the book “da” which I have not read, that it is quoted there or maybe it was told to me as an inference on there part.

Could you provide me with the book and page that Sister White referred to Christ as “Jehovah”, for this seems to go against what I have read from the Sisters writings.

Peace and Grace
David

Thank you for the quotes;

Lets start with the “da” quote first;

The quote you gave is incomplete to prove that it is speaking of Christ being God. Reading before and after your quote I find that it is speaking of God the Father and Christ the Son of God.

Just before your quote I read that Abraham knew of Christ through the horrible experience of almost sacrificing his own son. And here is the rest of the quote from before that, which you gave,
“Abraham learned of God the greatest lesson ever given to mortal. His prayer that he might see Christ before he should die was answered. He saw Christ; he saw all that mortal can see, and live. By making an entire surrender, he was able to understand the vision of Christ, which had been given him. He was shown that in giving His only-begotten Son to save sinners from eternal ruin, God was making a greater and more wonderful sacrifice than ever man could make.
Abraham's experience answered the question: "Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" Micah 6:6, 7. In the words of Abraham, "My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering," (Gen. 22:8), and in God's provision of a sacrifice instead of Isaac, it was declared that no man could make expiation for himself. The pagan system of sacrifice was wholly unacceptable to God. No father was to offer up his son or his daughter for a sin offering. The Son of God alone can bear the guilt of the world.
Through his own suffering, Abraham was enabled to behold the Saviour's mission of sacrifice. But Israel would not understand that which was so unwelcome to their proud hearts. Christ's words concerning Abraham conveyed to His hearers no deep significance. The Pharisees saw in them only fresh ground for caviling. They retorted with a sneer, as if they would prove Jesus to be a madman, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."
Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by this Galilean Rabbi. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin.”
Christ here claimed the “name” of God, which had already been given unto Him by His Father. Remember that Christ had indeed inherited a name above all others. Also Christ Himself never called Himself “God” only the Son of God.
The quotes from the book “PP”, from page 305 and 366 that you seem to say proves that Sister White is stating that Christ is here God. I have to disagree with.

Here on page 270 I read this

“Again the priests and rabbis cried out against Jesus as a blasphemer. His claim to be one with God had before stirred them to take His life, and a few months later they plainly declared, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God." John 10:33. Because He was, and avowed Himself to be, the Son of God, they were bent on destroying Him. Now many of the people, siding with the priests and rabbis, took up stones to cast at Him. "But Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

Modern spiritualism, resting upon the same foundation, is but a revival in a new form of the witchcraft and demon worship that God condemned and prohibited of old. It is foretold in the Scriptures, which declare that "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 1 Timothy 4:1. Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, points to the special working of Satan in spiritualism as an event to take place immediately before the second advent of Christ. Speaking of Christ's second coming, he declares that it is "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." 2 Thessalonians 2:9. And Peter, describing the dangers to which the church was to be exposed in the last days, says that as there were false prophets who led Israel into sin, so there will be false teachers, "who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them. . . . And many shall follow their pernicious ways." 2 Peter 2:1, 2. Here the apostle has pointed out one of the marked characteristics of spiritualist teachers. They refuse to acknowledge Christ as the Son of God. Concerning such teachers the beloved John declares: "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father." 1 John 2:22, 23. Spiritualism, by denying Christ, denies both the Father and the Son, and the Bible pronounces it the manifestation of antichrist.” PP page 686

Understand that Sister White did not nor could she write that, which is against the Holy Scriptures. So if She did not write against the Holy Scriptures it must be our understanding of what she wrote.



Here are some quotes about Christ bring the Son of God. Please note that Sister White has ever called the Son of God “God”. Should I add to this claim that I have never read from one of her books or articles that Christ is neither God nor a part of a “trinity”. She has always distinguished between the Father and the Son.

Christ is the Son of God in deed and in truth and in love, and is the representative of the Father as well as the representative of the human race. His arm brought salvation. He took humanity, was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh, and submitted to all the temptations wherewith man would be beset. He showed in the great controversy with Satan that He was fully able to remove the stigma and discount the degradation of sin which Satan has placed upon the human family. By taking humanity and combining it with divinity, He was able to meet every demand of the law of God, to overcome every objection which Satan had made prominent as standing in the way of man's obedience to God's commandments. 14 MR 83,

Read the 5/30/1895 Signs of the Times.
1 SM pages 296,297
Signs of the Times 4/8/1897
R&H 7/9/1895
Youth Instructor 12/20/1900
Signs of the Times 1/9/1879
SOP Volume 1 pages 18,19
Testimonies for the church Volume 8 page 268
PP 34

Christ is the representative from the His Father to men. As such He speaks for the Father to men. In other words He speaks as if he where the Father because He is speaking the words of the Father. This does not make Him God in any way.

Again, the Father has given to His Son everything and Christ is still the Son of God and will always be the Son of the Living God.

Quote “Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense.”

Notice the words that Sister White used. And please notice that many people twist this quote to fit their desire. The word “essentially” does not even come close in its meaning that Christ IS GOD!

Christ has Himself plainly stated that He did the Will of His Father not His own Will!

Christ is NOT God, meaning He is not God the Father for there is only One God.

Christ has inherited a name above all others yes and that is the name of His Father.
His Fathers name is God, that is what we call Him.

Isa 44:6
Pro 8:22 forward
Mark 13:29,32
John 8:54
John 17:3
Mark 5:7
1 Timothy 6:15
Eph 4:6
Mark 12:32
Isa 44:6
1Cor 8:4,6
John 20:17

And a host of other text including the books that Paul wrote where Paul opens up each book by distinguishing between the ALMIGHTY FATHER and JESUS CHRIST THE SON of GOD.

Yes Christ inherited the name of His Father this does not make him God for there is only ONE GOD.

If Christ is God then He is His own Father and if he is his father how can he be his son?

I am not my father although I have my Fathers name.

If God cannot be tempted then the Bible lies for Christ was tempted was he not?
If God is immortal then how could Christ have died, for He was “SLAIN FORM THE EARTH” was he not?
Did Christ not die the sinner’s death?

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How do you explain these texts?

In prior post I have explained the weak stance of John 1:1-3 as some try to prove it in there 3 god belief system.


EXD 20
And God spake all these words, saying,
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
hou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Christ may have said these words but as Christ Himself stated HE DID THE WILL OF HIS FATHER! And by doing His Fathers Will He spoke the words that His Father gave Him to speak.
Peace and Grace
David

In the second two quotes I provided, it is seen that Christ was the one who gave the law at Sinai.

In the Ten Commandments these principles are carried out in detail, and made applicable to the condition and circumstances of man.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."

Jehovah, the eternal, self-existent, uncreated One, Himself the Source and Sustainer of all, is alone entitled to supreme reverence and worship. (PP 305)

This is Christ speaking, as it was Christ who gave the law.

Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness--the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host--but it was He who gave the law to Israel. Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father's law. It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone. (PP 366)

Who's will was He fulfilling? His Own? No, He fulfilled His Fathers.
Again, Is Christ the Almighty God? Or is He the Son of the Almighty God?

1 Cor 8:6. What does it say?
What did Christ say in John 14. The Father was in Christ. Christ did not the Works nor the say the words but it was the Father who dwelt in Him.

Peace and Grace

David