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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77463
08/24/06 02:27 AM
08/24/06 02:27 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Would it make any difference if it had said "en" instead of "dia"? Wouldn't it be a good idea for us to make clear when we are changing the words of someone or something we are quoting?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77464
08/24/06 11:11 AM
08/24/06 11:11 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
‘Love’ and ‘self-existence’ are mutually exclusive.
What about God? Is He not self-existent?
No Tom, I have said this before.
God is not self-existent; God is Love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77465
08/24/06 11:49 AM
08/24/06 11:49 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Wouldn't it be a good idea for us to make clear when we are changing the words of someone or something we are quoting?
Without a doubt, you are correct.
Quote:
Would it make any difference if it had said "en" instead of "dia"?
The question seems rather redundant. Words are meant to express thought and understanding. If we are expressing different thoughts we use different words; depending on how we use them we can use same words to express different thought. That is basic, no? Everything about any communication affects what is expressed.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77466
08/24/06 12:46 PM
08/24/06 12:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Tom, what are your thoughts on this?
Heb 1:2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through(dia*) whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his (Father’s) glory, and the express image of his (Father’s) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
*dia: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through;
As I said 'by' can be used to mean 'through'; and the KJV uses ‘by’ as meaning ‘through’; but we must remember that it is the ‘channel’ and not the ‘source’ of the act. Do you not see that in verse 3, it is the Father's glory, power, and person?
Paul makes this point clear.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom (ek)are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom(dia) are all things, and we through him(dia).
ek: A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause;
dia: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through;
EW wrote:
But turning from all lesser representations , we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all.
Though this is the theme of the New Testament, many are ignorant of it. The point that Christ does nothing of himself is the central theme of the Gospel. Christ said that his death attests to that.
Tom, why do you think Christ wanted to make it so plain that he does nothing of (source, origin) himself; that he lives by (source, origin) the Father?
Do you think it was gratuitous?
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77467
08/25/06 02:24 PM
08/25/06 02:24 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John, Self-existence doesn’t mean an existence turned to self, as you want to imply, but an existence not dependent on any external cause or agency. God doesn't depend on anyone to exist. Quote:
Why do you think Christ wanted to make it so plain that he does nothing of (source, origin) himself; that he lives by (source, origin) the Father?
For two reasons:
1) Because He wanted to make plain that He was man's representative, and that He was doing what Adam should have done.
"In Christ there was a subjection of the human to the divine. He clothed his divinity with humanity, and placed his own person under obedience to divinity. Satan had tempted Adam and Eve to believe that they should be as gods. Christ requires that humanity shall obey divinity. In his humanity, Christ was obedient to all his Father's commandments." {RH, November 9, 1897 par. 10}
2) Because He was man's Savior, and must make clear the following truth: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77468
08/25/06 05:31 PM
08/25/06 05:31 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom:Would it make any difference if it had said "en" instead of "dia"?
John:The question seems rather redundant. Words are meant to express thought and understanding. If we are expressing different thoughts we use different words; depending on how we use them we can use same words to express different thought. That is basic, no? Everything about any communication affects what is expressed.
You were making the point, or I understood your point to be, that Paul was not saying Jesus was the source of creation because he used the word "dia" instead of "en" (you didn't mention "en," I did; but it's the common word for "by") so the KJV should have said "through" rather than "by" (or "by" should be understood as "through" rather than as indicating a source). So I asked if it would make any difference if Paul had used "en" instead of "dia".
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77469
08/25/06 05:40 PM
08/25/06 05:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I think Jesus was referring to His mission to reveal the character of God to us. Jesus was showing us what God is like. God is not selfish. That's what Jesus was communicating.
Had God the Father come to our world and dwelt among us, humbling Himself, veiling His glory, that humanity might look upon Him, the history that we have of the life of Christ would not have been changed....In every act of Jesus, in every lesson of His instruction, we are to see and hear and recognize God. In sight, in hearing, in effect, it is the voice and movements of the Father. (Letter 83, 1895)
I believe this is true. God the Father could have lived among us, and had He done this, He would have said and done the same thing Christ did. In this case God would have been revealing that Christ is not selfish.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77470
08/25/06 09:00 PM
08/25/06 09:00 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Self-existence doesn’t mean an existence turned to self, as you want to imply, but an existence not dependent on any external cause or agency. God doesn't depend on anyone to exist.
No, as previously pointed out; the point is not living for self or to self, but self-existence means to live by self; of self; where self is the source. Self-existence is not just existence it is a defined type of existence. An existence which Christ most affirmably denied, and went to the cross to prove that he does nothing of (source, origin) self.
Christ testifies that he lives by the Father; he does depend on the Father to exist. His Father is his source. That is what the gospel is all about, and what Satan denies.
Quote:
Quote:
Why do you think Christ wanted to make it so plain that he does nothing of (source, origin) himself; that he lives by (source, origin) the Father?
For two reasons:
1) Because He wanted to make plain that He was man's representative, and that He was doing what Adam should have done.
"In Christ there was a subjection of the human to the divine. He clothed his divinity with humanity, and placed his own person under obedience to divinity. Satan had tempted Adam and Eve to believe that they should be as gods. Christ requires that humanity shall obey divinity. In his humanity, Christ was obedient to all his Father's commandments." {RH, November 9, 1897 par. 10}
2) Because He was man's Savior, and must make clear the following truth: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
1) Does that mean that what he is saying about himself is not true? That he is rather self-existent, and only saying things for us to hear? Is he talking about himself or about us? Is he truly so, or is it gratuitous?
To do nothing of himself; to live by the Father; is the quality of the “Son of God”. These are divine; by these he overcame the world. These also he offers to us; that we may be partakers of his divine nature.
The qualities of “Son of Man” that he took on himself are what tempted him to do things of and on his own, and that which caused sin in man. So to ascribe self-existence (living of self, source, origin) to him is to deny his divine nature and to ascribe sin.
Christ died so that we may know that he does nothing of himself, and man has turned the truth into a lie by making him self-existent.
2) If it is ‘truth’, then how can you say that it is not the ‘truth’, by ascribing self-existence? How could he make the 'truth' clear if it is not truth?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77471
08/25/06 09:13 PM
08/25/06 09:13 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
I think Jesus was referring to His mission to reveal the character of God to us. Jesus was showing us what God is like. God is not selfish. That's what Jesus was communicating.
Had God the Father come to our world and dwelt among us, humbling Himself, veiling His glory, that humanity might look upon Him, the history that we have of the life of Christ would not have been changed....In every act of Jesus, in every lesson of His instruction, we are to see and hear and recognize God. In sight, in hearing, in effect, it is the voice and movements of the Father. (Letter 83, 1895)
I believe this is true. God the Father could have lived among us, and had He done this, He would have said and done the same thing Christ did. In this case God would have been revealing that Christ is not selfish.
That is true in character, but not in person; or it could not, would not, be true at all.
You cannot exchange the persons and make the Father be the Son, and make the Son the Father. These are not Roles. They are genuine realities. If they are roles then they are not ‘truth’. Truth is A=A, and B=B; and you want to say that it does not matter and that A=B. If that is the case then there is no truth to what either the Father or Christ said.
To be the Father or Son has to do with source, origin and not with behavior. You, Tom and Rosangela keep switching the gospel from source to behavior, while maintaining opposing source. I am continually speaking about the source, and maintaining that source results in behavior. Christ was stressing his source in order to identify to us his life, so that we also may let go of self as source of our life, and take hold of the Father as source.
The issue of the gospel is the source, and not behavior. What is the source? If the source is self then sin and death is the fruit of it. This makes no difference whether one is in heaven or earth; it makes no difference ‘who’ one is. It is the law of life of the universe. That is why we are called to be born of God, so that our source is changed. Therefore the point is that the message is that the Father is the source and the Son is the channel; and that this is ‘eternal life’.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom (ek)are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom (dia) are all things, and we through him (dia).
ek: A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause;
dia: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through;
EW wrote:
But turning from all lesser representations , we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all
Though this is the theme of the New Testament, many ignore it. The point that Christ does nothing of himself is the central theme of the Gospel. Christ said that his death attests to that.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77472
08/25/06 09:17 PM
08/25/06 09:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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To what does God owe His existence, if not to Himself?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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