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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77453
08/22/06 10:37 PM
08/22/06 10:37 PM
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Quote:
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
As I have said several times in similar discussions, if this text precludes Christ from being God, it precludes God the Father from being Lord.
You are correct; it does preclude that (your idea of God) and more. It precludes the Father from being the Son, and the Son from being the Father. It also makes the Son, the Son of the Father, and it makes the Father the Father of the Son.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77454
08/23/06 09:11 AM
08/23/06 09:11 AM
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Quote:
My question is if you understand that things were created "through" Christ as opposed to "by" Christ.
You gave as an analogy that Rosangela was "created" by her ancestors, which would indicate that Christ's act in creating was similar. That is, our ancestors did not create the original life that humanity received, but they passed it on. So Christ passed on the life that He received from God, and "created" humanity, similarly to how our parents "created" us. This is how I'm understanding what you're saying.
Yes, similar in the fact that he created us not of his own power but by his Father’s power.
Heb 1:2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his (Father’s) glory, and the express image of his (Father’s) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Dissimilar in the fact that, he did not do it of his own will, as sinful man does; but rather he was doing the Father’s will; so it was the Father working through him.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77455
08/23/06 09:21 AM
08/23/06 09:21 AM
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In other words eternal life is a living flow between the Father and the Son; rather then having received something and walking away with it and using it. It was done by the Father dwelling in the Son.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77456
08/23/06 11:32 AM
08/23/06 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Christ took the humanity of man. He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, His divine attributes.” {7BC 926.5}
What are his divine attributes?
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 7:28 … and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
"He does nothing of himself"
These qualities are qualities of the “Son of God”. These are divine; by these he overcame the world. These also he offers to us; that we may be partakers of his divine nature.
The qualities of “Son of Man” that he took on himself are what tempted him to do things of himself, and that which caused sin in man.
So to ascribe self-existence to him is to deny his divinity and to ascribe sin to him. Christ died so that we may know that he does nothing of himself, and man has turned the truth into a lie by making him self-existent.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77457
08/23/06 03:04 PM
08/23/06 03:04 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What version are you quoting? The KJV has: Quote:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb. 1:1-3)
The word translated "by" can be translated "through" or in other ways, but the most usual translation is "by."
For SOP fans:
Quote:
All things were created by the Son of God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. . . . All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." John 1: 1-3. (DA 281)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77458
08/23/06 03:21 PM
08/23/06 03:21 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
However, if I understand correctly from your statement that Christ is “God” then the humanity, which he took on and this same humanity that wrap His divinity was still with Him on this earth. Then as such He was still God and He still died and this “God” died.
Who was in Heaven?
There is a needless confusion here, David. “God” is a term used to describe any of the members of the Godhead (the heavenly TRIO, to use Ellen White’s own words).
You are one flesh, your spouse is one flesh, but the two of you are not two fleshes, but one flesh. In the same way the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but the three are not three Gods, but one God. Two persons, but one flesh. Three persons, but one God.
As to 1 Cor 8:9, it says that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. I see no problem here.
Many of the objections you presented were answered in previous threads about the Trinity. I’ll provide the links as soon as I have time.
Quote:
Can you find those same quotes or ones that hold the same views that you have given in any of her books? I am speaking of the books that she wrote or articles such as the R&H etc.
“How thankful we should be that Christ took human nature upon himself, and became subject to temptation, even as we are! Though he took humanity upon himself, he was divine. All that is attributed to the Father himself is attributed to Christ. His divinity was clothed with humanity; he was the Creator of heaven and earth; and yet while upon earth, he became weary, as men do, and sought rest from the continual pressure of labor” {RH, May 19, 1896 par. 5}
“The Son of God clothed divinity with humanity. Isaiah describes him, saying: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever." God in human nature is the mystery of godliness. ... God was in Christ in human form, and endured all the temptations wherewith man was beset; in our behalf he participated in the suffering and trials of sorrowful human nature.” {ST, January 2, 1896 par. 1}
"’I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.’ While as a member of the human family He was mortal, as God He was the fountain of life for the world. He could have withstood the advances of death, and refused to come under its dominion; but voluntarily He laid down His life, that He might bring life and immortality to light." Isa. 53:4-6. {DA 484.1}
"’’I am the resurrection, and the life.’ He who had said, ‘I lay down my life, that I might take it again,’ came forth from the grave to life that was in himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die. In his divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that he has life in himself to quicken whom he will. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God. However able and talented, however large their capacities, they are replenished with life from the source of all life. He is the spring, the fountain, of life. Only he who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light and life, could say, ‘I have power to lay down my life, and I have power to take it again.’" {YI, August 4, 1898, par. 1 & 2}
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77459
08/23/06 06:32 PM
08/23/06 06:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The list Rosangela is a good list. I'd add one more, which I cited before: Quote:
Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness--the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host--but it was He who gave the law to Israel. Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father's law. It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone. (PP 366)
Recognizing that Christ was the one who gave the law ties Him to "Jehovah, the self-exitent One," as she puts it, the One who said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77460
08/23/06 09:41 PM
08/23/06 09:41 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
What version are you quoting?
Tom, I am quoting KJV; clarified by me.
Heb 1:2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through(dia*) whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his (Father’s) glory, and the express image of his (Father’s) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
*dia: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through;
As I said 'by' can be used to mean 'through'; and the KJV uses ‘by’ as meaning ‘through’; but we must remember that it is the ‘channel’ and not the ‘source’ of the act. Do you not see that in verse 3, it is the Father's glory, power, and person?
Paul makes this point clear.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom (ek)are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom(dia) are all things, and we through him(dia).
ek: A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause;
dia: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through;
EW wrote:
But turning from all lesser representations , we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all.
Though this is the theme of the New Testament, many are ignorant of it. The point that Christ does nothing of himself is the central theme of the Gospel. Christ said that his death attests to that.
Tom, why do you think Christ wanted to make it so plain that he does nothing of (source, origin) himself; that he lives by (source, origin) the Father?
Do you think it was gratuitous?
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77461
08/23/06 09:56 PM
08/23/06 09:56 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
“Christ took the humanity of man. He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, His divine attributes.” {7BC 926.5}
What are his divine attributes which were endangered?
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself , but what he seeth the Father do
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 7:28 … and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
These qualities are qualities of the “Son of God”. These are divine; by these he overcame the world. These also he offers to us; that we may be partakers of his divine nature.
The qualities of “Son of Man” that he took on himself are what tempted him to do things of and on his own, and that which caused sin in man. So to ascribe self-existence to him is to deny his divine nature and to ascribe sin.
Christ died so that we may know that he does nothing of himself, and man has turned the truth into a lie by making him self-existent.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself
Quote:
The Bible forbids me to worship my parents.
Why does the Bible condemn those who worship the creature instead of the creator? Does God contradict Himself?
"because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen" (Rom. 1:25)
That happens, whenever one exchanges the ‘truth’ about God for a lie.
As I said before the concept of worship that you present falls far short of ‘Christ in you’ which cries Abba, Father.
Your concept of God is ‘self-existence’; so if someone is not ‘self-existent’ he is not God. It appears that in your mind self-existence is what makes God, God. You will only worship one that is ‘self-existent’; hence you worship ‘self-existence’. That is ‘creature-worship’.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Thus the consideration would be:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
‘Love’ and ‘self-existence’ are mutually exclusive.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
So to overcome the world one has to be born of God.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
If we love the Father, we would love his Son, because he is his Son, and because he is not of himself.
There is no overcoming the world or victory over sin in believing that Christ is self-existent.
He that overcometh the world knows that Christ is the Son of the Father; begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
He that overcometh the world does nothing of himself.
He that overcometh the world has the ‘faith of Jesus’.
He that overcometh the world does not deny the testimony of Jesus that he does nothing of himself.
He that overcometh the world does not deny that Christ is the Son of God.
2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
If being the Son of God and what that means is just an endearing term, then overcoming the world is just a gratuitous thought, and everything that Christ said of himself is just gratuitous.
A doctrine that teaches: that he is God in such a way, so as that he is not the “Son of God” is contrary to the revelation from the Father to which Christ himself attested.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77462
08/24/06 02:22 AM
08/24/06 02:22 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
‘Love’ and ‘self-existence’ are mutually exclusive.
What about God? Is He not self-existent?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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