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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77473
08/25/06 09:23 PM
08/25/06 09:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't think the issue was source, but character.
Had God the Father come to our world and dwelt among us, humbling Himself, veiling His glory, that humanity might look upon Him, the history that we have of the life of Christ would not have been changed....In every act of Jesus, in every lesson of His instruction, we are to see and hear and recognize God. In sight, in hearing, in effect, it is the voice and movements of the Father. (Letter 83, 1895)
I don't think from your point of view that it would have been possible for the Father to have taken human flesh, and come to this earth, as suggested here (am I wrong about this?) I think it was possible.
Had He done so, the same thing would have happened. The Father would have emptied Himself, as Christ did. He would have lived by the power of the Son. He would have said the same things and done the same things, just as EGW says.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77474
08/25/06 11:19 PM
08/25/06 11:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
I don't think the issue was source, but character.
Why then do you insist on self-existence as his source; or is self-existence character? Somehow the source seems to matter? Yet I am stating that the source most certainly matters and that is what makes character. And you insist on self-existence; being the opposite of what Christ said; which he spoke to reveal the source of his character.
Quote:
I don't think from your point of view that it would have been possible for the Father to have taken human flesh, and come to this earth, as suggested here (am I wrong about this?) I think it was possible.
Had He done so, the same thing would have happened. The Father would have emptied Himself, as Christ did. He would have lived by the power of the Son. He would have said the same things and done the same things, just as EGW says.
Tom, the character is determined by source. So the issue is source.
I said: that would be true in character, but not in person; or it could not, would not, be true at all.
Had the Father come, his character would have been the same; and his thoughts towards us would have been the same; but he could not say that he was the Son or that the Son was his Father; because simply that is not truth. In other words he could not come down as the Son, but could only come as the Father. If he wanted to be revealed in the person of someone else, he would have to send that someone else.
Christ did not become Son as a result of ‘emptying himself’. He was the Son of the Father long time before then.
Tom, it strikes me how by saying what you are saying you deny that he is the Son of the Father. Also for the EW quote which I have quoted often enough, which you have said is your favorite, yet you have posted continually against it.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77475
08/26/06 01:41 AM
08/26/06 01:41 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The character of God is to give. God is love. This is what Christ revealed. The law of love, the law of giving, is the law of the universe. Had God the Father come, He would have said the same thing Christ said, because He would have humbled Himself, as Christ humbled Himself. He would have received all things from Christ, as Christ received all things from the Father.
Satan accused God of being arbitrary, harsh and severe. Jesus Christ revealed what God is really like. Had the Father come instead of the Son, He would have revealed what the Son was really like.
Much of what Christ said was due to His being a human being. He counted not equality a thing to be grasped, but humbled Himself, taking the form of a man. He lived as a man.
To what does God owe His existence, if not to Himself? If God owes His existence to Himself, then He is self-existence. Since God is love, this shows that self-existence is not contrary to love, unless God owes His existence to someone or something else other than Himself.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77476
08/28/06 01:17 AM
08/28/06 01:17 AM
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quoted from Tom.
I don't think from your point of view that it would have been possible for the Father to have taken human flesh, and come to this earth, as suggested here (am I wrong about this?) I think it was possible.
Had He done so, the same thing would have happened. The Father would have emptied Himself, as Christ did. He would have lived by the power of the Son. He would have said the same things and done the same things, just as EGW says.
The character of God is to give. God is love. This is what Christ revealed. The law of love, the law of giving, is the law of the universe. Had God the Father come, He would have said the same thing Christ said, because He would have humbled Himself, as Christ humbled Himself. He would have received all things from Christ, as Christ received all things from the Father.
Unquote.
I don’t agree with this idea, there is no truth in it.
There would never be a possibility for the Father to come to earth; if He came down here the universe would die.
For God to come in person must be the Son of God covered by humanity, for by his coming, the Father would take care of the universe, since he is the Source of life and could never become a channel of the Source (1 Corinthian 8:6).
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77477
08/28/06 01:30 AM
08/28/06 01:30 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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How do you understand the quote I cited, James?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77478
08/28/06 10:36 PM
08/28/06 10:36 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
The character of God is to give. God is love. This is what Christ revealed. The law of love, the law of giving, is the law of the universe.
True Tom, God is love, and it is his character to give; but you are not accepting who is giving and what is given. It is the Father’s life that is being given, flowing. Second, you are missing the means of transfer. The channel of transfer is the Son of the Father. You also are not accepting that the Father is the source. These things Christ established; he did not say this because he was a man; he said this because he was the Son of God (it is his divine life), and it is unalterable truth. He revealed ‘how’ the Father was dwelling in him.
This is not arbitrary. It is simply reality; reality that the Son is born of the Father, and that the Father is the one that begat him. Hence the Son is not son by arbitrary role, but by birth. The Father is not Father by arbitrary role but by the fact that he is the one who begat. There is no relationship anywhere in the universe that is arbitrary. Anything arbitrary is not genuine.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77479
08/28/06 10:43 PM
08/28/06 10:43 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Had God the Father come, He would have said the same thing Christ said, because He would have humbled Himself, as Christ humbled Himself. He would have received all things from Christ, as Christ received all things from the Father.
Satan accused God of being arbitrary, harsh and severe. Jesus Christ revealed what God is really like. Had the Father come instead of the Son, He would have revealed what the Son was really like.
Tom, humbling one self does not change who one is. One cannot pretend to be someone else on account of humbling oneself. But the trinity doctrine and what you propose has many self defeating concepts. First it proposes that the Son is not really Son of the Father, and the Father is not really the Father of the Son. Then it confirms the same, by saying that either one could have been the other, in so establishing that neither is either. As a prerequisite you have that both are self-existent; (no son,no father).
Now in this scenario there is no reality; A is not A, and B is not B. The persons you speak of are a mystery; an unknown, unrevealed; they can be anything you want them to be, as long as they are self-existent. They just take roles of one kind or another while maintaining their self-existence. This is all totally arbitrary; there is no reality (one says I’ll take this role, you take that – arbitrary). So you confirm Satan’s accusation that God is arbitrary. In this case they can say anything they want, for there is no reality to it. It’s all in the act. There is no Son and no Father. To say in this case that Christ received anything at all from the Father is but a mockery. To talk about being dependent and not doing anything of self, and giving his life while holding self-existence, and raising himself from the ‘grave’; is but pretense and hypocrisy. There is no truth and no knowledge in this, only an arbitrary stance.
To say that the character of God is to give in this scenario is but another meaningless statement, as the giving has no definition, and no means of transfer. It leaves us completely separated from God.
Remember my statement: That would be true in character, but not in person; or it could not, would not, be true at all.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77480
08/28/06 10:55 PM
08/28/06 10:55 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
To what does God owe His existence, if not to Himself?
This is the question I was waiting for!!!
But it cannot be answered until the reality of the life of the Son is realized. For if one cannot understand the language and life of the Son then one cannot understand the life of the Father. The life of the Son of the Father which has been revealed, gives us the meaning, the definitions, and the reality of: self, love, faith; the meaning of life, eternal life.
Christ defined: "self"; "love", "faith", "life", "eternal life"; that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77481
08/28/06 11:16 PM
08/28/06 11:16 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
How do you understand the quote I cited?
Hope you don't mind me answering this one as well.
But turning from all lesser representations , we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all
What the above quote says is:
That in the words of Christ, describing his relationship to the Father, is revealed the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. It establishes how every being in the universe partakes of the life of the Father by that same faith. It also states that Christ himself partakes of the Father’s life in the same way, and ministers to us the same life.
It states that the Father is the (unquestionable) great source of all, and the Son of God is the channel through whom the Father’s life flows. When this Law of life is in place then it is seen and understood that it is the glory of God to give; that we all live by the Father and that the way of life is the way of the Son; that in order to partake of the Father’s life (love), there can be no “self” in the heart to live by.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77482
08/29/06 03:33 AM
08/29/06 03:33 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, Christ had proclaimed in triumph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." These words could be spoken only by the Deity. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death.(DA 785)I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." While as a member of the human family He was mortal, as God He was the fountain of life for the world.(DA 484)I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this John. It's not just that I believe EGW was inspired, but I also believe her interpretation of Scripture is correct. Don't know what else to say. I still like you. 
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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