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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77493
08/30/06 12:44 PM
08/30/06 12:44 PM
the1888message  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
If you would not mind I have a thought on the question “…of to whom, or what, God owes His existence”

I believe that this question is truly beyond human comprehension. To who(m) or what does God owe His existence is not a place that we should be dwelling for we are His creation are we not.

I like Romans 11:32-36;
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Which is of course followed by Romans 12:1-2;
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God”

Peace and Grace
David


The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77494
08/30/06 02:06 PM
08/30/06 02:06 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

Here in Romans, Paul is speaking of God, the Father and Paul calls the eternal power and the “Godhead” His. Meaning that the Godhead belongs to the Father.



Two different words, David.
Romans 1:20 uses theiotes, which means divinity, divine nature. Col. 2:9 uses theotes, which means deity, the state of being God, Godhead.
Obviously the three members of the Godhead have a divine nature, so this is not an exclusive attribute of the Father.

Quote:

Moreover, everything that is “created” or has “life” by the Son of God and we are “made” or we have “life” by the Son, however it was the Fathers power that the Son “used” or “was given”. I am not sure how the “Godhead” is the source of “life”? Could you define that for me a little? With scripture please.



The Bible doesn’t say that Christ used the power of God to create us. What the Bible says is that God gives us life, that Christ gives us life and that the Holy Spirit gives us life – the three members of the Godhead, or of the heavenly TRIO, give physical and spiritual life to us. This is what I mean by saying that the Godhead is the source of life. The Scriptures showing this were provided in my previous post.

Quote:

If you would not mind I have a thought on the question “…of to whom, or what, God owes His existence.” I believe that this question is truly beyond human comprehension. To who(m) or what does God owe His existence is not a place that we should be dwelling for we are His creation are we not.



There is nothing beyond human comprehension here. Nobody created God and nobody sustains His life, therefore God owes His existence to no one but Himself. He is self-existent. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, the One who is, and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77495
08/30/06 04:02 PM
08/30/06 04:02 PM
the1888message  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
While qeioÉthj~ “thelotes”. It comes from qeiÅoj “theos”. Yes it is two different words, however the word Godhead comes from the word God. Godhead means Divinity, while qeiÅoj means A deity, o Ç denotes the supreme Divinity; in the Hebrew it would show exceeding deity.

The verse from Romans does must decidedly shows that the Godhead belongs to the supreme deity, and this deity is the Father of Christ.

Where does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit gives us life? Please provide scripture text.
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Peace and Grace
David


The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77496
08/30/06 04:33 PM
08/30/06 04:33 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
She already did.

Quote:

And the same is true of the Holy Spirit:

Ps 104:30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the earth.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.




Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77497
08/31/06 02:05 AM
08/31/06 02:05 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Quote:

I believe that this question is truly beyond human comprehension. To who(m) or what does God owe His existence is not a place that we should be dwelling for we are His creation are we not.




Hi David, I never did suggest that God owes his existence to anyone or anything. I just said that God is not 'self-existent', and the question was put forth.

But we do have plenty scripture information on life!

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77498
08/31/06 02:08 AM
08/31/06 02:08 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Tom, thanks for the brief summary.
I am still hoping you will post a brief summary in your own words contrasting your view.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77499
08/31/06 11:20 AM
08/31/06 11:20 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Quote:

Where does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit gives us life? Please provide scripture text. Is the Holy Spirit God?



Quote:

She already did.
Quote:

And the same is true of the Holy Spirit:

Ps 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.







I fully agree that the spirit of God gives life; by it the Son was born.
However, it is not another person; the person of the spirit is the Father. It is the Father's spirit.

Otherwise, "the breath of the Almighty" could be another person (God).
And "the eyes of the Lord" is/are also (an)other person(s).

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77500
08/31/06 11:47 AM
08/31/06 11:47 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think the Son was begotten, not created. I think we can go too far in trying to understand Christ's Sonship in terms of human sons. That is, God used a relationship which we know and understand to communicate one which we don't. He used our language to best communicate the idea in a way we can understand His relationship with Christ, but we should not be too literal interpreting this language. For example, as we know things, to have a Son one must have sex. Christ was not generated by sexual reproduction. As we know things, before a son is begotten, the son does not exist. I don't think this applies to Christ as well. (i.e., there was never a time when He did not exist).

I can't think of anything Ellen White wrote on the subject that I am uncomfortable with. Also it seems to me that Waggoner's views on the subject are in harmony with hers.

I think Christ was the One on Mt. Sinai who gave the law. He is Jehovah (or Yahweh, or which version one wishes to use).

Christ was always God's choice to represent Him. At some point in ages past Christ proceeded forth from the Father for this purpose. He was "begotten." Before this point in time, He existed in some other form, but we are not told of His relationship to the Father before this happened, so we would just be speculating to suggest what it was.

The Holy Spirit is as much a person as God the Father and Jesus Christ.

I'm not comforatable using the word "trinity," as I think there are elements of the Catholic position which are not correct, and "trinity" conveys an agreement with their position. I note that Ellen White never used the term, and I don't recall Waggoner's using it either.

Well, that's not as brief as the outline of your position, John, but it's a summary!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77501
08/31/06 11:51 AM
08/31/06 11:51 AM
the1888message  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
I was't sure, thanks for clearing it up for me.

Peace and Grace
David


The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77502
08/31/06 08:51 PM
08/31/06 08:51 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Thanks Tom for your summary,

Could you tell me as to why you think it is important?

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