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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77513
09/02/06 11:39 PM
09/02/06 11:39 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
So, Christ is the Lord in whom we live, our God and Mediator to the Father, the Almighty God for whom we live.
Since Christ is called God, James, should we worship a lesser god and a higher God? Or a God more powerful and a God less powerful? This is bitheism, not monotheism.
"There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one LORD, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all,and through all, and in you all." Eph. 4:4-6.
"Now the LORD is that spirit; and where the spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty." 2 Cor. 3:17
I believe that the "One God and Father of all" is above the Son and the LORD is the holy spirit. If the holy spirit is a distinct third person, then the "One God and Father of all" is the Father of the holy spirit and the Father is above the holy spirit.
How do you read these verses?
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77514
09/03/06 12:17 PM
09/03/06 12:17 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Dr. Glenn,
The problem is that worshiping several gods with one above the others can never be classified as monotheism.
Christ is also called Father (Isa. 9:6); and the three persons of the Godhead are called Lord: the Father (Luke 1:32, etc), Christ (1 Cor. 8:6, etc), and the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).
As to the Spirit being the third person of the Godhead, Ellen White clearly says that He is:
“The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church.” {DA 671.2}
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77515
09/03/06 01:30 PM
09/03/06 01:30 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote
“Dr. Glenn,
The problem is that worshiping several gods with one above the others can never be classified as monotheism.
Christ is also called Father (Isa. 9:6); and the three persons of the Godhead are called Lord: the Father (Luke 1:32, etc), Christ (1 Cor. 8:6, etc), and the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).” End quote
Isa 9:6 states that three things will happen before Christ is called these names.
The last has not happened yet for the New Jerusalem is not here on this earth and we have not yet been taken to Heaven, the Wicked have not been destroyed.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ISA 9:6
While I have no problem calling Christ “God” due to the Biblical fact that He was given that name through inheritance from the Father I would still have a problem calling the Holy Spirit “God” due to the Biblical fact that this title or name is never given to it nor is it ever used as describing it. The Holy Spirit is just that the Spirit of God, and not God but OF God.
In the Book of Revelation chapter 5 you will find that the Father has shown us that it is ok for us to give worship to the Son and that at this point God gave “power, honor etc to His Son. Does this place Christ above the Father? No, it does not, has Christ been placed equal to the Father? I would have to say that it seems so.
Since God allowed His Son to be worshiped then we can worship Him as well. This will not break any commandment, unless we worship Christ as the Father and / we use this trinity theory and ‘ or we forget to worship the Father. By the way this always happens in a trinity / triune god system.
What is the 1st of the Three Angels Message, to worship God right? Why is this? Because as a religious system that has followed the teachings of the pagan / roman catholic church these religious systems have forgotten the Father and have placed the Son in a position that the Father is over shadowed and not worshipped as He should be. The Son is the Father and the Father is the Son in ALL trinity 3 in 1 god system.
This is not true in the Godhead for there is only one God the Father and mediator / Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God and one Holy Spirit the Spirit of God the Father. Not 3 Gods all on 1.
The Holy Spirit is not God and the Bible never tells us to worship him nor to call him God and the Bible never uses the name “God” for the Holy Spirit.
Yes the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead but this does not make it God or a God.
Interesting to note how far we have come from what the early SDA church once believed.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77516
09/03/06 01:30 PM
09/03/06 01:30 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Dr. Glenn,
The problem is that worshiping several gods with one above the others can never be classified as monotheism.
Christ is also called Father (Isa. 9:6); and the three persons of the Godhead are called Lord: the Father (Luke 1:32, etc), Christ (1 Cor. 8:6, etc), and the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).
As to the Spirit being the third person of the Godhead, Ellen White clearly says that He is:
“The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church.” {DA 671.2}
I am sorry but Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God taught that his Father was above him and Paul also taught this. See Matt. 28:18; Mark 13:32; John 14:28 John 17:2 John5:19; John 5:26; John 6:57. I have to believe what Jesus Christ himself taught. EGW taught what Jesus Christ himself taught if you read all of her writings. The problem is that people want to take only the quotations of EGW that support their theory and disregard the other quoatations.
Rosangela, you can believe whatever you want to. However, 2 John 9 says: "Whosoever transgresseth,and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
I believe that the "doctrine of Christ" is that his Father is above him.
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77517
09/03/06 02:01 PM
09/03/06 02:01 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
The reason I think it is important to allow all three members of the Godhead to be God is that it gives us a better understanding of the heavenly fellowship which is the universal ideal of social interaction and fellowship.
Is that economy of fellowship based on "self-existence"; or on "doing nothing of self"?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77518
09/04/06 12:04 AM
09/04/06 12:04 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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John, the idea I'm thinking of is that if we allow for greater and lesser Gods then we don't have a 'round table' in heaven; instead we have a rectangular one with the Father at the head.
Why is that important? Because if we view the Father as having the final say, then we have a more authoritarian picture of God. I think Adam and Eve before the fall offer us a truer picture of what divinity is like. They were equals but had different roles. Eve before the fall was created as a companion and helper, indicating that Adam even before sin had a leadership role. But we are told they were equals. I think scripture paints the same picture of the deity but it is even a greater mystery. If we have difficulty seeing differing roles and Adam charged with leadership as hard to reconcile with equality, we're clearly going to have the same or even greater difficulty reconciling the equality of the Son as fully Divine and yet recognizing the Father as having a leadership role. But the Bible is clearly monotheistic. Deut. 4 I think is one of the best known montheistic passage. So Rosangela is stressing the point and I second it that to deny the equality of the three is to abandon monotheism.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77519
09/04/06 01:26 AM
09/04/06 01:26 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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I think the Son was begotten, not created. I think we can go too far in trying to understand Christ's Sonship in terms of human sons. That is, God used a relationship which we know and understand to communicate one which we don't. He used our language to best communicate the idea in a way we can understand His relationship with Christ, but we should not be too literal interpreting this language. For example, as we know things, to have a Son one must have sex. Christ was not generated by sexual reproduction. As we know things, before a son is begotten, the son does not exist. I don't think this applies to Christ as well. (i.e., there was never a time when He did not exist).
I think I made it very clear from the start of this thread that it was not a birth by physical reproduction or any form of mitosis, and I do not think you should be bringing this up again. But it is also very clear, to every even slightly informed person, that there is such a thing as being born of the spirit; and that being born of the spirit is a birth which supersedes the physical. In fact the physical is of no consequence in the matter of eternal life. So Christ was not born by ‘physical reproduction’ or ‘mitosis’ or any physical means; but he was born of the spirit of the Father; as you or I are called to be. Is it possible that you or anyone here questions the fact that he was begotten of the holy spirit of God?
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I can't think of anything Ellen White wrote on the subject that I am uncomfortable with. Also it seems to me that Waggoner's views on the subject are in harmony with hers.
I think Christ was the One on Mt. Sinai who gave the law. He is Jehovah (or Yahweh, or which version one wishes to use).
Christ was always God's choice to represent Him. At some point in ages past Christ proceeded forth from the Father for this purpose. He was "begotten." Before this point in time, He existed in some other form, but we are not told of His relationship to the Father before this happened, so we would just be speculating to suggest what it was.
The Holy Spirit is as much a person as God the Father and Jesus Christ.
I'm not comfortable using the word "trinity," as I think there are elements of the Catholic position which are not correct, and "trinity" conveys an agreement with their position. I note that Ellen White never used the term, and I don't recall Waggoner's using it either.
Well I do not see the point of not liking the title if you have the same concept. I think the word trinity defines their concept well; though neither the concept nor the word trinity is scriptural or true.
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I think the important thing is to understand God's character. The purpose of Jesus' mission was to show us what God is like. This is what we need to know.
I agree, but this (character) is not all there is to know about God. We can know about someone’s character by their actions; but we may never know by what means and how they manage to have such character. How does that character function? Does knowledge alone change anyone? To know about God’s character is not much different than knowing the Law; because one still does not know or have the means of attaining to such character. (… but how to perform that which is good I find not.) What is this relationship by which we can become partakers of his divine nature? What is his divine nature that we need to partake of? By what means is it possible for us to have God dwelling in us? How does one get to know God “intimately”?
How can we tangibly get to the root (source) of the matter, instead of trying to bear (imitate) the fruit? Character is not the source; character is a result.
Quote:
I think there are more important issues than this one (i.e. the trinity) insofar as being mixed up about God's character is concerned. In particular, picturing God as one who would set someone on fire for acting contrary to His wishes, or as one who needs to be appeased by blood before He will forgive are more important issues. It appears to me that you and I see God's character very similarly.
I agree that we see God’s character very similarly; however I’ve noted certain blanks in your perception.
Essentially you do not see what or how the issue of, the nature of their being; the reality of the Father and the Son affect their characters. You have seen the result of their character, but not the basis of their character; the means and ways of attaining to and maintaining such character. Such character does not come of self.
You also do not see how that the same way that the Father and the Son are one, by that very same way (same means; same relationship) we are to be one in them; how they can dwell in us, and we in them; how it can be, not I but Christ. What the means, ways and functionality of this relationship is. So you do not see how their relationship has any meaning in this.
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I guess one thing that's important to me is to be in agreement with what I perceive to be inspired statements from God, which for me includes Ellen White's writings.
Well, this is kind of basic to all hearing; meaning, we correlate everything to what we already perceive as true. This is both good and bad; both a liability and an asset. The difference between the two is determined by whether we are true, or biased. Consider the Jews at the time of Christ; they had their perception, according to Moses and prophets, of what the Messiah would be and do (and it was taught accordingly in their schools). How did that make it possible for them to accept and receive Christ?
Quote:
I guess there are some issues which are vitally important to some people which to me just aren't. Maybe my opinion on this will change at some point.
Anyway, to repeat, I think the vitally important thing is to understand God's character.
To recognize character is one thing, but by what means that character exists; how it can become ours; Can one love in that manner while the source is self, is the question. Can one truly perceive God’s character aright, while the source is self?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77520
09/04/06 03:19 AM
09/04/06 03:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Why is that important? Because if we view the Father as having the final say, then we have a more authoritarian picture of God.
Boy, this is an interesting insight! (and rather ironic too)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77521
09/04/06 03:30 AM
09/04/06 03:30 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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It's late and I'm tired, so I'll cover a couple points now, and more later.
1.The point about the reproduction is that your argument seems to be predicated on what we know about sonship in the human realm. That is, Christ is a Son, therefore He must have been born, and there must have been a time He didn't exist. If we are going to argue from the human to understand the divine, then we could equally well argue that Christ was produced by sexual or asexual reproduction, since that's how human sons are made. I'm bringing it up not to assert that this is what you believe, but to point out a weakness in the position.
2.I don't think "trinity" fits Waggoner's position well at all. Until you just now, I don't think I've heard anyone suggest this.
3.How do we come to be like God in character? By beholding we become changed. As be behold God's character in Jesus Christ, we become like Him. It's not a matter of just mental knowledge or assent, but our hearts are wooed by the Spirit. We have a desire to be like Christ, and the Spirit fulfills the desire of our heart.
Surely you don't believe one must believe Christ there was a time when Christ did not exist to become like Christ in character, do you?
4.I disagree with your assertion regarding the Father and Son being One, that I don't understand this, not I but Christ, and so on. I believe Ellen White's perspective on this was correct too, and Waggoner's as well. If I'm ignorant on these points, as you seem to think I am, at least I have good company!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77522
09/04/06 12:06 PM
09/04/06 12:06 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
The Holy Spirit is not God and the Bible never tells us to worship him nor to call him God and the Bible never uses the name “God” for the Holy Spirit.
Yes the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead but this does not make it God or a God.
David,
Sorry, but I have never seen anything so contradictory as this theory. Its followers do not even agree among themselves. Even the JW's position is more coherent.
Who or what is the Holy Spirit for you? Please give us your definition, because John said that "the person of the spirit is the Father". If "the person of the Spirit is the Father", it does not make sense to say that the Holy Spirit is not God and should not be worshiped.
If it is the presence of God, a dichotomy is being made between God and His presence, which doesn't make any sense at all.
If the person of the Spirit is God the Father (or Christ, or both), or the presence of the Father, the baptismal formula of Matt. 28:19 doesn't make any sense at all. You can't be baptized in the name of a Person and in the name of the presence of that Person, or in the name of a Person and in the name of that same Person again.
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