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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77523
09/04/06 12:11 PM
09/04/06 12:11 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
I am sorry but Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God taught that his Father was above him and Paul also taught this. See Matt. 28:18; Mark 13:32; John 14:28 John 17:2 John5:19; John 5:26; John 6:57.
He did say that - as a human being. He came to be a member of the human family and, being the representative of the race, He had to assume a role inferior to the Father and subordinated to Him until the end of the plan of salvation. This is an easy concept to apprehend.
Now, would you like to share with us your conception of the Holy Spirit, and please give us an explanation about Matt. 28:19?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77524
09/04/06 12:21 PM
09/04/06 12:21 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
John, the idea I'm thinking of is that if we allow for greater and lesser Gods then we don't have a 'round table' in heaven; instead we have a rectangular one with the Father at the head.
Why is that important? Because if we view the Father as having the final say, then we have a more authoritarian picture of God. I think Adam and Eve before the fall offer us a truer picture of what divinity is like. They were equals but had different roles. Eve before the fall was created as a companion and helper, indicating that Adam even before sin had a leadership role. But we are told they were equals. I think scripture paints the same picture of the deity but it is even a greater mystery. If we have difficulty seeing differing roles and Adam charged with leadership as hard to reconcile with equality, we're clearly going to have the same or even greater difficulty reconciling the equality of the Son as fully Divine and yet recognizing the Father as having a leadership role. But the Bible is clearly monotheistic. Deut. 4 I think is one of the best known montheistic passage. So Rosangela is stressing the point and I second it that to deny the equality of the three is to abandon monotheism.
Interesting thoughts Mark; maybe the table you are thinking of is triangular. “To deny the equality of the three is to abandon monotheism” is self-contradictory. That is tri-theism with agreement.
No, what we need to realize is that there is no table at all. That is not at all the economy of the relationship; the eternal life, of heaven. Life does not revolve around a table. It is of a very different nature.
There are many parables, allegories, and metaphors designed to teach a lesson, as also the one you suggested of marriage. But the revelation of the Father and the Son is none of those. It is genuine reality; the truth; the way; and the life. We should not set up our metaphors to set at naught the truth as declared by God. So much of man’s picture of God is but the result of not allowing his word to do its work in us; if we did we would know the life; the eternal life which is in Christ.
The concept of greater and lesser gods is but a concept which fails to comprehend what it means to be a son, born of the Father's spirit.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77525
09/04/06 01:09 PM
09/04/06 01:09 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
1.The point about the reproduction is that your argument seems to be predicated on what we know about sonship in the human realm. That is, Christ is a Son, therefore He must have been born, and there must have been a time He didn't exist. If we are going to argue from the human to understand the divine, then we could equally well argue that Christ was produced by sexual or asexual reproduction, since that's how human sons are made. I'm bringing it up not to assert that this is what you believe, but to point out a weakness in the position.
Tom, that Christ is son of God is not my idea; it was revealed by the Father.
That he is begotten is not my idea, it is plainly spoken by the Father as well.
That it happened at a point in time is not my idea, it was likewise spoken by the Father.
That his birth is the same as what we are called to is not my idea, it is plainly revealed in the scriptures.
That the birth spoken of is spiritual is not my idea, it is plainly stated in the scriptures.
That the only ones that inherit the kingdom are those born of the spirit of God, is not my idea but spoken by Christ.
There is no weakness in the position. The weakness is in your and Rosangela's position of trying to make those concepts man's, or only applicable while he was man.
Would you like the scripture texts?
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2.I don't think "trinity" fits Waggoner's position well at all. Until you just now, I don't think I've heard anyone suggest this.
Sorry, bad context on my part. What I was meaning is: I do not see the point of not liking the title if you have the same (Catholic) concept. I think the word trinity defines their (Catholic) concept well; though neither the concept nor the word trinity is scriptural.
The "same" and “their” was referring to Catholic.
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3.How do we come to be like God in character? By beholding we become changed. As be behold God's character in Jesus Christ, we become like Him. It's not a matter of just mental knowledge or assent, but our hearts are wooed by the Spirit. We have a desire to be like Christ, and the Spirit fulfills the desire of our heart.
“By beholding we become changed”. True, very true; but it depends what we behold. If we just behold results, we will not be changed into the results. When beholding, one must behold the whole. When you behold a master at work, do you just behold the result; or, do you behold the means and ways of how he attains the result as well? There is more to beholding then that too.
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Surely you don't believe one must believe Christ there was a time when Christ did not exist to become like Christ in character, do you?
No, that is not the point, but we cannot have a concept that does not allow him to be the Son of the Father; that denies the basis of his character; and still expect to have the same character as his. He who does not have the Son does not have the Father also.
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4.I disagree with your assertion regarding the Father and Son being One, that I don't understand this, not I but Christ, and so on. I believe Ellen White's perspective on this was correct too, and Waggoner's as well. If I'm ignorant on these points, as you seem to think I am, at least I have good company!
Sorry Tom, please do not take this negatively. I do not mean it that way; I like you. 
Trying to point out that I perceive that you do not perceive what I am saying.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77526
09/04/06 01:31 PM
09/04/06 01:31 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
He did say that - as a human being. He came to be a member of the human family and, being the representative of the race, He had to assume a role inferior to the Father and subordinated to Him until the end of the plan of salvation. This is an easy concept to apprehend.
You miss the point altogether. He did not say that because he was son of man, but because he was son of God. It was his divine nature that he revealed to us, not the human. What we beheld was the “glory of the word”, not the dust of the flesh. He did not tell temporal (temporary and earthly) things, he spoke to us the things of heaven; eternal things; the eternal life, inso that we also may become partakers of that life.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77527
09/04/06 01:39 PM
09/04/06 01:39 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
I am sorry but Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God taught that his Father was above him and Paul also taught this. See Matt. 28:18; Mark 13:32; John 14:28 John 17:2 John5:19; John 5:26; John 6:57.
He did say that - as a human being. He came to be a member of the human family and, being the representative of the race, He had to assume a role inferior to the Father and subordinated to Him until the end of the plan of salvation. This is an easy concept to apprehend.
Now, would you like to share with us your conception of the Holy Spirit, and please give us an explanation about Matt. 28:19?
Rosangela:
Because Jesus said it as a human, can I teach and practice what ever I want? So, because Jesus said it as a human, I can serve other gods? I can made a graven image and bow down to them? I can take the LORD's name in vain? I can do anything I want to on the seventh day? I do not have to honor my parents? I do not have to be faithful to my spouse? I can steal from my neighbor? I can murder my neighbor? I can bear false witness? I can covet my neighbor's spouse? or his house?
ALL BECAUSE JESUS SAID IT AS A HUMAN?:
I BELIEVE THAT YOUR TEACHING ON THIS IS FROM SATAN WHO IS THE FATHER OF LIES!
There can be no excuse for transgressing the law of God.
Jesus said: "Get the behind me Satan: thou art an offense unto me; for thou savourest not the things of God, but those that be of men."
Jesus is also the Son of God as a divine being and as a divine Son he obeys the 5th commandment.
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77528
09/04/06 02:51 PM
09/04/06 02:51 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Dr. Glenn,
Saying that just won't help your case. I also find your teaching anti-Biblical. If you believe that only the Father is God, you are serving other gods and transgressing the commandment. Not only that, you are also making God contradict Himself, for He commands us to not worship other gods in Exodus, and then in the New Testament commands us to worship Jesus (who, according to you, is not the only true God - which can only lead to the logical conclusion that He is a false god). This does a disservice to the Christian faith and to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77529
09/04/06 03:08 PM
09/04/06 03:08 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
You miss the point altogether. He did not say that because he was son of man, but because he was son of God.
The opposite is true, John. The context makes clear that Christ is speaking of His incarnate state:
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son, that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77530
09/04/06 05:06 PM
09/04/06 05:06 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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On the first things you said, I think these have been gotten into in this thread. I agree with EGW's positions. On the second thing, I don't think Waggoner's position is Catholic, which is why "trinity" doesn't fit well for it. Ellen White's isn't Catholic either. The Catholic view of God is fundamentally different than ours, even with our differences of opinion regarding Christ's pre-existence. "Trinity" includes unwanted baggage. To name just one thing, their view of an immortal soul is tied into their concept of the Trinity. On the third thing, the "thing" to behold is Christ. I think there are many valueable lessons to be taken from things your are sharing. I don't perceive that these truths depend upon believing there was a time when Christ did not exist. Also, I've never denied that Jesus was God's Son. I've never tied this to His taking humanity either. On the fourth thing, we are dealing with a dry medium here, so whatever we say is automatically turned up in intensity. Just something to keep in mind. Glad you like me.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77531
09/04/06 10:01 PM
09/04/06 10:01 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Dr. Glenn,
Saying that just won't help your case. I also find your teaching anti-Biblical. If you believe that only the Father is God, you are serving other gods and transgressing the commandment. Not only that, you are also making God contradict Himself, for He commands us to not worship other gods in Exodus, and then in the New Testament commands us to worship Jesus (who, according to you, is not the only true God - which can only lead to the logical conclusion that He is a false god). This does a disservice to the Christian faith and to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Well, there is no use arguing over this. I believe that there is one God who is the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Cor. 8:6. and I believe there is "one God and Father" who is above all and through all and in you all. See Eph. 4:6. And you do not believe this. I believe and teach what the Bible says and if you don't want to listen then there are many other people who want to know what the Bible says. I must got to them and leave you alone.
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77532
09/04/06 10:11 PM
09/04/06 10:11 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Here is a text that gives us a clue of when the beggetting occurs: Quote:
2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.
2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.
The text links the beggetting with the crowning of Christ as King of heaven and especiallyof this earth. They're the same event. Look at the text again. Isn't that what it is saying? So John is right that there is a connection between the title Son of Man and the beggetting event. But like the cross and sacrifice of Christ, the kingdom of Christ embraces eternity past and future.
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