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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77553
09/11/06 03:19 PM
09/11/06 03:19 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
To know God the Father as the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Son of God is eternal life.
This explains their position, the chain of command, who is the leader, who is superior, the only One True God, the Great Source of all, the Father of Jesus Christ.
James,
Don't you see that if you say the Father is the one true God, Jesus can only be a false god?
But this is not what the Bible says:
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life".
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77554
09/11/06 03:46 PM
09/11/06 03:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
To know God the Father as the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Son of God is eternal life.
This explains their position, the chain of command, who is the leader, who is superior, the only One True God, the Great Source of all, the Father of Jesus Christ.
James,
Don't you see that if you say the Father is the one true God, Jesus can only be a false god?
Is that what you think of the Father who dwells in him?
Quote:
But this is not what the Bible says:
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life".
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, by his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life".
In this setting the 'en' has the meaning of instrumentality which is "by". The true God spoken of is the Father, in whom we are through the Son.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77555
09/11/06 03:55 PM
09/11/06 03:55 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
1+1=1
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
So, in the economy of heaven the math is true.
It is not 1+1+1=1
But rather it is 1x1=1. The Son lives by (times) the Father.
It is also true in the fact that the Father lives through the Son. 1/1=1.
It is thus that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
So in this manner we all can be part of that fellowship, and the math still works. Because 1x1x1x1x1x1x1 ad infinitum is still = 1. Thus there is only one God the Father; and there is the first born Son among many brethren.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77556
09/11/06 04:07 PM
09/11/06 04:07 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
He was equal with God, and the Jews understood that:
It is because they understood that, that they picked up stones to kill him?! Is that good or bad? If they were right in the one thing why would they not be right in the other also? Would you do that if you understood that?
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
It is because they did not want to hear him that they picked up stones to kill him.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77557
09/11/06 04:48 PM
09/11/06 04:48 PM
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Yes, the following verifies that the Jews understood that: Quote:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Why did the Jews take up stones to stone Him? For blasphemy, for claiming to be God.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77558
09/11/06 04:55 PM
09/11/06 04:55 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Did they believe him?
Or were they using his words against him?
If they did not believe him; how did they understand him in truth?
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77559
09/11/06 10:21 PM
09/11/06 10:21 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Why did Jesus seek to correct their understanding by telling them:
Joh 5:19 ... Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77560
09/12/06 01:43 PM
09/12/06 01:43 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, by his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life".
In this setting the 'en' has the meaning of instrumentality which is "by". The true God spoken of is the Father, in whom we are through the Son.
John,
Not even the authors of New World Translation, the JW’s Bible, have tried to do what you are proposing, simply because it is completely unreasonable to affirm that the same preposition is repeated in the same sentence with two different meanings. Either it would have to be “we are by him who is true, by his son Jesus Christ” or “we are in him who is true, in his son Jesus Christ”. If John would have meant different things, he would have used different prepositions.
Quote:
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John, you are just using the old classical agnostic trivialization of the doctrine which claims that the idea of a Trinity is "mathematically absurd" because 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, not 1. You do not seem to be aware that when we say "God is one" and "God is three," the one and the three apply to different referents - one substance, character, purpose; and three persons. In the same way that in a marriage you have two persons and one flesh, because there is one purpose; and in the church you have many persons and one body, because there is one purpose.
The Bible says we should be baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; if there were only two persons, being baptized in three names would make no sense. Even with the Father and the Son split into two, as you propose, the number three wouldn't fit, because then there would be four entities, not three.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77561
09/13/06 12:14 AM
09/13/06 12:14 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, by his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life".
In this setting the 'en' has the meaning of instrumentality which is "by". The true God spoken of is the Father, in whom we are through the Son.
John,
Not even the authors of New World Translation, the JW’s Bible, have tried to do what you are proposing, simply because it is completely unreasonable to affirm that the same preposition is repeated in the same sentence with two different meanings. Either it would have to be “we are by him who is true, by his son Jesus Christ” or “we are in him who is true, in his son Jesus Christ”. If John would have meant different things, he would have used different prepositions.
John did not mean different things and neither do I. He spoke what is naturally meaningful to him who knows the way. That which is communicated and the very sentence structure establish the meaning. I did not change the meaning but rather demystified it.
What is John saying?
He is telling us that the Son of God has come and given us an understanding of the Father (the true one), and speaking of himself and the saints he says “we are in the Father (the true one), then he tells how it is that they are in the Father (the true one); by being in the Son of the true one. Then he reaffirms that the life they live and the true one that they are in, the Father, is the True God and the eternal life.
So the point that John makes plain is that there is no 'substitutionary' "by" but that the means of being in the Father is "in"-stitutionary; by us being "in Christ". It is not by proxy, but it is by the indwelling. It is this indwelling that you do not allow.
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in (by) his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life"
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77562
09/13/06 02:49 AM
09/13/06 02:49 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
John, you are just using the old classical agnostic trivialization of the doctrine which claims that the idea of a Trinity is "mathematically absurd" because 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, not 1. You do not seem to be aware that when we say "God is one" and "God is three," the one and the three apply to different referents - one substance, character, purpose; and three persons. In the same way that in a marriage you have two persons and one flesh, because there is one purpose; and in the church you have many persons and one body, because there is one purpose.
No, I am not trivializing the trinity doctrine; I am showing that it is wrong. It is exactly how they are one that is the point. The Trinitarian reference does not allow for the biblical definition of the oneness. In its place it establishes an oneness based on “substance”; meaning a ‘unique’ physics. The three persons having the same character and purpose is shrouded in a relationship of mystery; thereby denying the very gospel which was revealed in Christ; the gospel of the life.
The trinity doctrine concept is "exclusive"; separating mankind from God forever. The gospel of the Father and Son relationship is "inclusive" uniting us with God forever.
Do you hold that they are one in the same manner as we are to be one with them? That is what Christ prayed. Do you hold that (as you say) the one “body” that is theirs is the same “body” of which we become members so that we have the same oneness with them as they have with each other.
Your illustration of marriage is tantamount to immorality (when applied to the Father and the Son). Nowhere has either Christ or the Father intimated that the relationship between them is that of, or akin to marriage. The revelation however is not that they are “like” or taking “roles” as Father and Son; but that he is the Father and Christ is his Son. Every aspect of the relationship revealed establishes the spiritual birth of the Son, and the continuing life testifies to the indwelling of the Father by his spirit in the Son. Would you like the scripture quotes?
Do you understand what it means to be born of the Father’s spirit?
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
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