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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77543
09/10/06 02:08 AM
09/10/06 02:08 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 149
USA
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Quote:
Christ said that he is the only begotten son of God, that he indeed is the Son of God, and the other God is His Father.
Only the Father knows when is the end of the world at Christ 2nd coming, the Son doesn't know.
We always pray to the Father in Jesus name, eventhough He is the Creator of heaven and earth.
We never pray to the Holy Ghost or ask something in His name.
Is Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Are both equal God with the Father God?
Is the Trinity doctrine not transgressing the 1st commandment?
I need answer to these questions, can any one help?
In His love
James S
==========
Topic spelling correction only. - Daryl 
James,
You have the same problem that I had, Questions that the answers I had been given from the “trinity” teaching could not answer.
I will give you some thoughts if you do not mind.
1) Is Jesus God?
Yes and no. Christ is not God as the Father is. He can be called God with that understanding and the understanding that Christ the Son of God inherited the name of His Father. However, to call Christ God as if He where the Father is error.
2) Is the Holy Spirit God?
No he / it is not nor can he be. The Holy Spirit is just that the Spirit of God. You are correct there is no place in the scriptures that states, “the Holy Spirit is “God” or that it has been given the right to be worshipped, nor are we ever taught in the scriptures that we can pray to him. Christ taught that we are to pray to the Father, the One True God.
3) Are both equal God with the Father God?
Are the Holy Spirit and Christ equal to God? Again, yes and no. They are all one when it comes to our salvation and their working together towards that end, yes.
No, because there is only One God and One Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God and One Holy Spirit the Spirit of God.
God has given the right to His Son to be worshipped to have power, honor etc. If Jesus were “God” how could it be given to him, would He not already have it? So, Christ has inherited from the Father a name above all others and all things have been given unto Him. So, in a since, he is equal, however he still has His Father, the Almighty God, whom Christ referred to as His Father, our Father, His God and our God.
4) The really big question. Is the Trinity doctrine not transgressing the 1st commandment?
Yes it is breaking the Commandments of God! The Commandments are the Testimony of the Father, they are His royal character, they show us God and His Love and teach us how to Love the Father and our fellow man. Christ came to earth and as John 14 teaches the Father dwelt in Christ and Christ taught us how to keep His Father law and how to have His character in us.
There is only one God and that is the Father, the Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Read how Paul opens his letters to the churches. Read how Christ always gave all glory to the Father. Read how Christ called the Father His God and our God.
The “trinity” teaches that there are three “gods” god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit. If we use basic math we add up the number of time the word god is used what do we have? 3! Now, this may be to simple for some, so the trinity also teaches that these three gods are not really three but that they are three part of one god. So how many gods do we have now? 4! The three gods become one god.
Confused yet? I was.
Why can we not just believe that there is only one God? Do we need more than one? The pagans do but not the followers of Christ. We need only the Father who is the Father of Christ, the Almighty God, and the One that loved us first. The one that sent His only begotten Son to die for my sins because I have broken and trampled His royal character. The Father sent His Son to teach us how we should live that we might be saved.
I hope this helps and that it makes since to you.
Peace and Grace
David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77544
09/10/06 01:56 PM
09/10/06 01:56 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
Christ said that he is the only begotten son of God, that he indeed is the Son of God, and the other God is His Father.
Only the Father knows when is the end of the world at Christ 2nd coming, the Son doesn't know.
We always pray to the Father in Jesus name, eventhough He is the Creator of heaven and earth.
We never pray to the Holy Ghost or ask something in His name.
Is Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Are both equal God with the Father God?
Is the Trinity doctrine not transgressing the 1st commandment?
I need answer to these questions, can any one help?
In His love
James S
==========
Topic spelling correction only. - Daryl
James,
The “trinity” teaches that there are three “gods” god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit. If we use basic math we add up the number of time the word god is used what do we have? 3! Now, this may be to simple for some, so the trinity also teaches that these three gods are not really three but that they are three part of one god. So how many gods do we have now? 4! The three gods become one god.
Confused yet? I was.
Why can we not just believe that there is only one God? Do we need more than one? The pagans do but not the followers of Christ. We need only the Father who is the Father of Christ, the Almighty God, and the One that loved us first. The one that sent His only begotten Son to die for my sins because I have broken and trampled His royal character. The Father sent His Son to teach us how we should live that we might be saved.
I hope this helps and that it makes since to you.
Peace and Grace
David
David:
The "trinity doctrine" as taught in the 28 fundamental beliefs actaully teach us that there are four gods: god the Father, god the Son, god the holy spirit, and the god who is "a unity of three co-eternal persons".
grw
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77545
09/11/06 01:51 AM
09/11/06 01:51 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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“Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3.
Does not what Jesus said here clarify all of our differences and doubts against the Godhead?
Eternal life is to know the God of Jesus Christ, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He had sent. To know God the Father as the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Son of God is eternal life.
This explains their position, the chain of command, who is the leader, who is superior, the only One True God, the Great Source of all, the Father of Jesus Christ.
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77546
09/11/06 01:58 AM
09/11/06 01:58 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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It does not include to know the Holy Spirit; if he is co-equal, another God, he must be included, right? But he is not! Because we might know God only by his works in us. He is the Spirit of the One True God, send by Him to reside in our heart and mind and teach us about the One who sent him.
And even God's personification dwells in heaven, His pirit might be every where at any time. If this Holy Spirit is another God, co-equal to the Father God, who is then the only True God? if the father could only stay in heaven, it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is the One True God, because he is the one superior, because he might reside in billions heart at the same time, some thing the Father could not do.
In His love
James S
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77547
09/11/06 09:18 AM
09/11/06 09:18 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
You miss the point altogether. He did not say that because he was son of man, but because he was son of God.
The opposite is true, John. The context makes clear that Christ is speaking of His incarnate state:
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son, that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."
Yes, the Son of God has gained further authority by becoming the son of man. Something more was added to him. His judgment however is not authoritarian, but succoring.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
However if you had gone a couple of verses earlier you would have seen what he said about his being the Son of God, and man’s concept of his being equal with God.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77548
09/11/06 09:22 AM
09/11/06 09:22 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
If you consider Christ a lesser god, an inferior god, a less powerful god, it is bitheism. If you consider Him co-equal with God, it is monotheism.
In your theology and according to your math:
1+1=1
1+1+1=1
whereas
1+3/4=2.
The truth is that:
1+1=2
1+1+1=3
1+3/4=1¾.
However none of these concepts is according to the way of life as it is in heaven.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77549
09/11/06 09:59 AM
09/11/06 09:59 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Is that economy of fellowship based on “self-existence?”
If yes, what is the implication?
Where you have self-existence, you have sin and death. Self-existence in the scriptures is transgression against the law of life. “Self” is something that is formed when the spirit of a person turns toward one’s own being to live thereby. This is a transgression against the spirit, for the spirit is the life of the body. To short-circuit oneself in that way is to form “self” and sin against the spirit, resulting in the working of death. So to establish “self-existence” is to establish that form of government which Satan is.
Quote:
Is that economy of fellowship based on “doing nothing of self?”
If all of the Godhead “doing nothing of self”, what might happen?
There should be One who is in charge, and the Others “doing nothing of self” except as a Mediator of the One in charge.
Is this the economy of fellowship between the Godhead? In His love James S
Yes, the Father is source. But the source is not his “self” but his Spirit. His Spirit is to do nothing of “self”.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life (quickeneth); the flesh (body) profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
His spirit is life
It is sad to see how the spiritual reality and truth of the Father and the Son has been obliterated. God saw fit to give us more metaphors to reinforce the truth. Here is a scripture metaphor revealing the meaning of “I live by the Father”, “I do nothing of myself”; what it means to be the Son of God and what it means to be the Father and source.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it:for the glory of God did “lighten” (fotidzo) it, and the Lamb is the “lamp” (lookhnos) thereof.
The Father is the Light and the Lamb is the Lamp. The Lamp does not shine of itself, but the Father lightens it. That is how the Father dwells in the Son, and the Son lives by the Father. That is how the Father is the source and the Son the Channel. The Oil in the Lamp; the Spirit of the Father in Christ. (In today’s language; the Father is the electricity and the Son is the light bulb). Though this is only a metaphor, and falls short because of the inanimate aspect of the lamp or light bulb, but it does teach us the lesson of the meaning of the words of Christ “I live by the Father”, “I do nothing of myself”.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Thus in him dwelleth the fullness of divinity bodily.
The economy of life in heaven is not of “self” but of “spirit”; and there is one Spirit, even the Father, the source of all; and one Lord through whom the life (spirit) of the Father flows.
So, in the economy of heaven the math is true.
It is not 1+1+1=1
But rather it is 1x1=1. The Son lives by (times) the Father. So the God that is in Christ is not his “self”, but the Father.
Hence he is the brightness of his (Father’s) glory, and the express image of his (Father’s) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power,
It is also true in the fact that the Father lives through the Son. 1/1=1.
It is thus that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (his spirit).
So in this manner we all can be part of that fellowship, and the math still works. Because 1x1x1x1x1x1x1 ad infinitum is still = 1. Thus there is only one God the Father of whom all things are; and there is the first born Son among many brethren.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77550
09/11/06 10:23 AM
09/11/06 10:23 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
“Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3.
Does not what Jesus said here clarify all of our differences and doubts against the Godhead?
Eternal life is to know the God of Jesus Christ, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He had sent. To know God the Father as the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Son of God is eternal life.
This explains their position, the chain of command, who is the leader, who is superior, the only One True God, the Great Source of all, the Father of Jesus Christ.
In His love
James S
Yes, this is true. Very true.
Now, we need to understand: "command"; "leader"; "superior".
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
With the heavenly Father, we are they who benefit; and he is the one who gives (serves).
With him is life; our subjection to him is for the purpose so that we would not be subject to death.
God is Love.
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77551
09/11/06 01:50 PM
09/11/06 01:50 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
In your theology and according to your math:
1+1=1
1+1+1=1
whereas
1+3/4=2.
The truth is that:
1+1=2
1+1+1=3
1+3/4=1¾.
However none of these concepts is according to the way of life as it is in heaven.
According to heaven's math:
1+1=1
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
1+1+1=1
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD (heb. JHWH)"
But Christ is also the LORD - Isaiah 40:10 "Behold, the LORD (JHWH) will come with strength, and His arm rules for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him, and His wage before Him" (see Rev. 22:12).
And the Holy Spirit is also called LORD: 2 Cor. 3:17-18 "The Lord is the Spirit" (gr. KURIOS, translation of the heb. JHWH)
By the way, the word "one" in Deut. 6:4 is echad, the same word used in Gen. 2:24: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh".
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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not?
#77552
09/11/06 02:14 PM
09/11/06 02:14 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Quote:
However if you had gone a couple of verses earlier you would have seen what he said about his being the Son of God, and man’s concept of his being equal with God.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
He was equal with God, and the Jews understood that:
“The whole nation of the Jews called God their Father, therefore they would not have been so enraged if Christ had represented Himself as standing in the same relation to God. But they accused Him of blasphemy, showing that they understood Him as making this claim in the highest sense." {DA 207.4}
But He came to be our example in the dependence of God, obedience to God, therefore He could do nothing of Himself.
Phil. 2:6-8 “Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.”
“Jesus repelled the charge of blasphemy. My authority, He said, for doing the work of which you accuse Me, is that I am the Son of God, one with Him in nature, in will, and in purpose. In all His works of creation and providence, I co-operate with God. "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do." The priests and rabbis were taking the Son of God to task for the very work He had been sent into the world to do. By their sins they had separated themselves from God, and in their pride were moving independently of Him. They felt sufficient in themselves for all things, and realized no need of a higher wisdom to direct their acts. But the Son of God was surrendered to the Father's will, and dependent upon His power." {DA 208.2}
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