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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77573
09/18/06 05:50 PM
09/18/06 05:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
John,

To determine an antecedent, all possibilities must be analyzed. As I said, in Matt. 13:19, grammatically there would be three possible antecedents for hOUTOS. The closest one is discarded because it is in the neuter gender; the other one is discarded because of context. So “anyone” is clearly the antecedent. “This” refers to everything in the previous sentence because everything in the previous sentence is essential for the understanding of the word “anyone,” as the context makes clear. However, what similarity does the example of Matt. 13:19 have with 1 John 5:20? None whatsoever. If your point was that the context is necessary to determine the antecedent, well of course this is true in every single case. But in 1 John 5:20 the words we are discussing as possible antecedents are perfectly understandable in themselves. “This” clearly does not refer to the entire previous sentence, but to a person who is both God and Eternal Life.

Quote:

Please note that the only person John calls God in his letter is the “Father”.



Please note that the only person John calls Eternal Life in his letter is the “Son”. If we look to the other writings of John, however, we will see that the Son is indeed called God (John 1:1-3; 20:28), but that the Father is never called Eternal Life. Eternal Life in this verse is clearly a person, and it is the same person who is the true God.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77574
09/19/06 02:55 AM
09/19/06 02:55 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Quote:

If your point was that the context is necessary to determine the antecedent, well of course this is true in every single case. But in 1 John 5:20 the words we are discussing as possible antecedents are perfectly understandable in themselves. “This” clearly does not refer to the entire previous sentence, but to a person who is both God and Eternal Life.




No, that is not what “this” refers to, because that information is not found preceding “this”. You are manufacturing information and “this” never allows it.

    1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, (by being) in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
This then is the true God: It is the God which the Son of God came and gave us an understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true; even the Father of the Son; He is the true God.

And this is the everlasting life: It is that relationship which is: being in the Father - the true God, by being in the Son of the Father.

This is the true God, and eternal life.
Nothing manufactured, only restated that which was previously stated; hence it is the true meaning of "this" hOUTOS that John was talking about. To say that Christ is the “true God” would be entirely manufacturing the info; because there is nothing that John said preceding “this” that said such a thing; and therefore cannot be true to “this” hOUTOS.

In your doctrine there is neither Son nor Father; there is no indwelling of the Father in the Son. There is no eternal life, because the word of the Father is not in the Son.

It is important to have the Son of God, and not a self-existent God. He that has a self-existent God has neither the Son nor the Father.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77575
09/19/06 03:10 AM
09/19/06 03:10 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Quote:

Quote:

No, there is no oneness based on “substance”; it is an oneness of spirit. This same oneness of Spirit is what salvation is about and what we are called to.
I suggest that you define ‘substance’, or admit my definition.




John,Oneness of spirit is one of the aspects of the unity between the members of the Godhead, but it clearly is not the only one, otherwise any believer could say, “I and the Father are one”.




Any believer ought to be able to say that; and to the degree that he cannot is not because of physics, but because of the lack of the oneness of spirit. Christ demonstrated this. It is not the difference in “form” that makes any distance in the statement that Christ said. Only a difference of spirit makes distance. The Father was/is “in Christ”, that is why they were/are one. And it is in that way that we are one with them.As Christ prayed: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:

Quote:

The definition of “substance” is given in the EGW quote I provided:
“The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.”

And these attributes, possessed exclusively by the Deity, are:
Eternity and self-existence
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Omniscience
No creature shares unity with the Godhead based on these attributes, but the members of the Godhead possess not only a spiritual unity, but also a unity based on these common attributes.




Self-existence, Christ emphatically and categorically denies, and in that context he denies the rest also.
But nevertheless, let’s go on;
Eternity is an environment.
The other are abilities and not “substance”.

Any creature can share with God in these abilities as God sees fit to share, and we all have a certain amount of these abilities as is severally given us of the Lord, even in the current state. But that is not what you think about; you think of them as some abstract thing, some fantastic thing of a different breed. (In relation to sin and righteousness-it is a different seed). The point is that Christ was just as much one with the Father when he was in the “form of man” as when he was in the “form of God”.

So, what is this “substance” that makes them one? In the Trinity concept, that is the only thing that makes them God and one, because as you say the spiritual is for anybody. So as I said before, the Trinity concept deals with physics alone; and it purports that physics to be “the” relationship of oneness. The second point is that this type of idea of unity denies the Father and the Son, thus denying the oneness of the spirit. Further, it denies everything that Christ or the Father said. It also denies the testimony of the apostles.

So as I said: It is fully understood that there is a ‘form’ of God; a ‘form’ of angel; a ‘form’ of man, and that the ‘form’ of God is vastly different than the ‘form’ of man. But the point is that it is not the ‘form’ that makes the oneness with God anymore than ‘form’ makes oneness between men. It is not “substance” that makes oneness with God anymore than the “substance” of man makes oneness between men.

The trinity doctrine concept is "exclusive"; separating man from God forever. The gospel of the Father and Son relationship is "inclusive" uniting us with God forever.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77576
09/19/06 12:22 PM
09/19/06 12:22 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

R: “This” clearly does not refer to the entire previous sentence, but to a person who is both God and Eternal Life.
J: No, that is not what “this” refers to, because that information is not found preceding “this”. You are manufacturing information and “this” never allows it.



This information is obviously not found preceding “this” – it’s found following “this”: “This is the true God and eternal life.”
“This” just refers to a person previously mentioned. This person previously mentioned must be defined as both God and Eternal Life. And in John’s writings we find both definitions applied to Jesus Christ, but just one of them applied to the Father.

Quote:

R: ... otherwise any believer could say, “I and the Father are one”.
J: Any believer ought to be able to say that



Well, the Jews understood perfectly that while He was a man, by saying these words Jesus was making Himself God (v. 33). Of course if the believer cannot say he is God, he shouldn’t be able to say these words in the sense Jesus spoke them.

Quote:

Self-existence, Christ emphatically and categorically denies, and in that context he denies the rest also.



Quite the opposite is true. He said He was life, and only someone who doesn’t depend on anyone else for his existence can say that.

Quote:

Any creature can share with God in these abilities as God sees fit to share



If a creature can be independent on God for life, and can be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, what distinguishes that creature from God?

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77577
09/20/06 01:55 AM
09/20/06 01:55 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
What about this:

1 Timothy 6:12-16.
Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witness. In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time – God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever, Amen.

What did Paul has in mind?

Add with this:

1 Corinthians 8:6.
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Who was Paul referring to as God, the only true God, King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal , the great Source of all things, whom no one has ever seen or can see?

If what Paul has in mind is God the Father, what does he has in mind about Jesus Christ?
If the Father is the only true God who alone is immortal , what does he thinks about Jesus Christ?
Think about it.

In His love

James S

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77578
09/20/06 03:05 AM
09/20/06 03:05 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Hi Everyone: This is John’s wife and I would like to put in my “two bits” if I may. Sometimes I marvel at how complicated we can all get when it seems so very simple to me. So, here I am and I’ll tell it as I read it in my Bible:

1) There is One God. Deut.6:4, John 17:3
2) That One God is the Father. 1Cor 8:6
3) The Father alone has immortality and dwells in light unapproachable, whom no eye has seen or can see. 1Tim 6:4
4) There is a being who God calls His Son. John 3:16
5) He proceeded forth from the Father. John 8:42
6) He is the express image of the Father. Col. 1:15, Heb.1:3
7) He was with the Father before all creation and God created everything through Him. Col.1:16, Heb.1:2
8) He shares the Father’s throne. Rev.3:21
9) The Father has exalted Him that every knee should bow to Him and that we should honour Him even as we honour the Father. Ephes.1:20, Math.5:23
10) The Father calls Jesus God. Heb.1:8
11) He also called others God-Solomon and Judges. Ps.45:6,7;Ps.82:6
12) The Father is Jesus’ Father and God Heb.1:9; John 20:17
13) The Father is the head of Christ.1 Cor.11:3 who is and will always be subject to the Father. 1Cor.15:27-28
14) The Son does nothing of himself nor does he speak his own words; He was sent by the Father in the Old Testament times as a representative of the Father, and the Father’s name was in Him.Ex.23:20-21 In the New Testament, the Father sent the Son to reveal the love of the Father and that relationship of faith, the faith of the Son. In this way showing the way back to God. Gal.4:6
15) It is by receiving the spirit of the Son in our hearts that we become sons and daughters of God for His spirit in us cries: “Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15
16) For those of you who are not aware of Adventist history, the pioneers did not believe in the Trinity, including E.G.White. James White called it “..the old Trinitarian absurdity.” Joseph Bates could not join his parents’ Congregational church because of it. J.H. Waggoner stated that the scriptures …”are entirely silent in regard to a trinity.” W.W.Prescott stated that “.Christ was twice born, once in eternity, the only begotten of the Father, and again here in the flesh…” Merritt Cornell stated that along with other false doctrine “… the mass of Protestants believe with Catholics in the Trinity…contrary to the spirit and letter of the new testament.”A.J.Dennis, John Matteson, J.M.Stephenson, R.F.Cottrell, D.W.Hull, S.N.Haskell, E.J.Waggoner, Uriah Smith, M.C.Wilcox and G.W.Amadon all wrote articles in the Review and Herald refuting the Trinity and giving a clear Biblical position. J.N.Andrews stated that the …”doctrine destroys the personality of God and his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. The infamous measures by which it was forced upon the church might well cause every believer in that doctrine to blush.”J.N.Loughborough in the R & H questions and answers stated in answer to the question:”What serious objection is there to the doctrine of the Trinity?” answered: “There are many objections… 1. It is contrary to common sense.2.It is contrary to scripture.3. Its origin is Pagan and fabulous.” Articles in the Review in the last half of the 19th century show clearly what the S.D.A. positon was. E.G.White never corrected or rebuked them but always endorsed them. Any statements she made are to be understood in the context of her already established belief, not in contradiction of it!
I am so glad to be a child of God. Jesus is so precious to me for he teaches me day by day how to do, not my own will, but my Father’s will. He didn’t have to come to this world, but because of the Father’s love and His love he did come, and was willing to be obedient, even unto death. He died the same way I will die, in the hope of the resurrection. He was resurrected the same way I hope to be, by His Father’s power. He really, truly suffered and died. It wasn’t a game or an act where He really didn’t die (only His humanity as some say). God took a risk by sending His Son into this world. It was Satan’s territory. Jesus could have failed. But He was prepared because He knew what it meant to be a Son in heaven and He brought his Sonship with Him. That is what He gives to you and me. Isn’t He wonderful? Isn’t God’s love wonderful? That’s what keeps me going. That’s what makes me love Him.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77579
09/20/06 03:06 AM
09/20/06 03:06 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Paul was very clear in his teaching. The cornerstone of his message:

1 Corinthians 2:2 - "For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

1 Corinthians 1:23 - "But we preach Christ crucified"

Galations 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ"

Paul testified that Jesus Christ had died.

Gordon

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77580
09/20/06 03:55 AM
09/20/06 03:55 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Quote:

But in 1 John 5:20 the words we are discussing as possible antecedents are perfectly understandable in themselves. “This” clearly does not refer to the entire previous sentence, but to a person who is both God and Eternal Life.




I agree that they are perfectly understandable, so the fact, that you find the need to manufacture information is not only unacceptable, but forbidden whenever “this” is used to summarize or restate a previous statement.
The antecedent of “this” hOUTOS is “the true one”, the Father of the Son; the true God; the one whom Christ called: “the only true God”.

Quote:

This information is obviously not found preceding “this” – it’s found following “this”: “This is the true God and eternal life.”
“This” just refers to a person previously mentioned. This person previously mentioned must be defined as both God and Eternal Life. And in John’s writings we find both definitions applied to Jesus Christ, but just one of them applied to the Father.




It is for this very reason that you have the error. That which precedes it does not agree with your interpretation of what follows and therefore your interpretation of what follows is erroneous, for it can never be “this”.

Christ's own testimony categorically denying what you are trying to say.

    Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Now if Christ plainly said, and John quoted him, that the Father is the "only" true God, then you ought to realize: that John knows the Father as the only true God and that is what he is saying. In fact 1 John 5:20 is an equivalent scripture to John 3:17; giving the proper meaning to the eternal life, which you have a wrong concept of. Eternal life is to know the Father as the only true God, and his Son, whom the Father sent. And John elaborates that it is in that indwelling relationship that the Eternal life is.

So this is what 1 John 5:20 says:

    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, (by being) in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
This then is the true God: It is the God which the Son of God came and gave us an understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true; even the Father of the Son; He is the true God.

And this is the everlasting life: It is that relationship which is: being in the Father - the true God, by being in the Son of the Father.

This is the true God, and eternal life.
Nothing manufactured, only restated that which was previously stated; hence it is the true meaning of "this" hOUTOS that John was talking about.

Please note the equivalency of John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77581
09/20/06 11:00 AM
09/20/06 11:00 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

Who was Paul referring to as God, the only true God, King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal , the great Source of all things, whom no one has ever seen or can see?

If what Paul has in mind is God the Father, what does he has in mind about Jesus Christ?
If the Father is the only true God who alone is immortal , what does he thinks about Jesus Christ?



Yes, James, who is Paul referring to in this verse?

“And this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality.”

Who does the Bible present as the King of kings and Lord of lords?

Revelation 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

And to whom does Ellen White apply this verse?

“All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God. However able and talented, however large their capacities, they are replenished with life from the source of all life. He is the spring, the fountain, of life. Only he who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light and life, could say, ‘I have power to lay down my life, and I have power to take it again.’" {YI, August 4, 1898 par. 2}

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77582
09/20/06 11:02 AM
09/20/06 11:02 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

For those of you who are not aware of Adventist history, the pioneers did not believe in the Trinity, including E.G.White.



The position that Ellen White is anti-trinitarian is completely untenable.

Quote:

And this is the everlasting life: It is that relationship which is: being in the Father - the true God, by being in the Son of the Father.



This is completely untenable in the Greek, and you know it, John. HOUTOS has two predicates – “true God” and “Eternal Life”. The same person referred to by hOUTOS is the true God and the Eternal Life. John identifies the Eternal Life, in this same epistle, as being Jesus. “Eternal Life” is never predicated of the Father. “Eternal Life” is not a relationship, it’s a person, a “He”. This is crystal clear in the Greek.

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