Greg, I just absolutely love what you wrote about the sanctuary and salvation. I believe it will all my heart and head. However, I have met with stiff resistance in this forum for advocating the same things.

Like you wrote, I too believe that we crucify our sinful old man habits and traits of character in the outer court on the altar of burnt offerings, and that we experience the miracle of rebirth in the laver of baptism. And then walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we enter the holy place where we mature in the attributes of God and in the fruit of the Spirit through prayer, study, fellowship and outreach. And finally, when our names come up in the investigative judgment, our record and memory of sin will be blotted out.

I see justification being first obtained in the outer court and then being maintained in the holy place where the process of sanctification is an ongoing daily experience in righteousness by faith. Glorification is associated with the most holy place where first our record and memory of sin is blotted out, and then mortality shall put on immortality when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory.

I think an important concept to explore, study, and pray over is the concept of baptism. I personally think that we have not put enough emphasis on Exodus 40:12-16. I think all Christians fall into the Aaron(Jesus) and his sons(us) category. I think that we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and washed in the doorway. I believe that the laver is more along the lines of the footwashing at the Lords Supper. What do you think?

I guess I hadn't thought of it in that way before. In Romans 6 Paul compares batpism to the death and burial of Jesus, which I have assumed is symbolized by Jesus entering and exiting the laver/tomb. If not the laver, then where?

Mike:
I personally have never thought of the tomb in the context of the sanctuary. To me the tomb would have to be outside of the camp. So it is an interesting question.
I still like the baptism in the doorway and the laver being the foot washing at the Lord's Supper.

Greg, Jesus was crucified outside the sanctuary, and yet most people associate His crucifixion with the altar of burnt offerings in the outer court. Does this fact help us determine whether or not the laver symbolizes the tomb?

Also, since communion service symbolizes the life and death of Jesus, and since baptism symbolizes imitating Jesus' life, death and resurrection - wouldn't it make sense to conclude that whatever the laver symbolizes it would somehow encompass all of the above?

Mike, I have to say that I find your preoccupation with the requirement of perfection PRIOR to being deemed converted unscriptural. I also think the question, "When do we experience moral perfection?" is a non-question. You might as well ask, "When do we experience invisibility?"

Justification is Christ's life covering ALL sin - including moral ones. Salvation isn't a revolving door (an Ellen White quote - source unknown to me at this time). Leaping in and out of the new man and the old man is what we do, and your testimony seems to confirm this. We get closer to God, and the wavering gets further away from us. But salvation is a GIFT. Justification is a GIFT. Sanctification is a GIFT. Glorification is a GIFT. And moral perfection - the state from which we fell (almost - as man had to prove his allegiance, and failed) is bestowed upon us at the end of time, along with immortality. There is NO perfection, as such, in this life. We experience victory over sin, but if this were perfect, it would remain when we looked away from Jesus.

Here is a cut and paste from your second post in this topic: "When is ceasing from known sin a reality for us?" This means that you say moral perfection equals ceasing from known sin.

I think the bible and Ellen White say moral perfection is walking with, and therefore knowing Jesus, and by knowing, we become like. Irresistably. Seeking Him is the focus. When do we experience moral perfection? No, wrong question. Rather, how can I know Him as my constant Companion. There is no time frame. It depends on one's commitment, subjection, and sheer time spent in fellowship and service with Him.

I am very surprised by the following paragraph from one of your posts: "Are we saved during this process that ultimately leads to conversion? I suppose that depends on our state of mind at the moment of death and also upon God's knowledge of the future. If we're one of those half baked, half converted, so-called Christians then I doubt we'll rise up with the saved in the first resurrection. But if we were rapidly traveling along the path of conversion, I'm quite sure we would be admitted to the kingdom of God."

You imply (a) that we can have no assurance unless we are living completely free of all known sin and (b) we can have that assurance if we are travelling at the correct pace towards that goal. It reminds me of the conversations - and definite statements - I heard at church in the past, where people told their children that if they died committing one sin and couldn't repent of it, then in spite of their otherwise pure life, they were lost.

No - there is something much more important than my behaviour and yours. It's the direction we are travelling in. And if we are travelling in that direction, led by the Spirit, we are experiencing all the moral perfection we can handle, thank you.

I'd like to share something that caught my attention re this subject a few days ago, from the Desire of Ages: "He knew that the life of His trusting disciples would be like His, a series of uninterrupted victories, not seen to be such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter." If our lives here are not seen to be a series of uninterrupted victories, could it be that we are looking in the wrong places for evidence?

Of course there is power to obey. But love is the empowering of true obedience. The devil likes people to worry about their behaviour and their moral perfection. It robs them of valuable time with the Source. You may feel I am demonstrating a naivete, and not focussing on the "meat" of the bible. But unless we have the basics right, the foundation won't hold up the rest.

"Can Jesus legally justify applying the benefits of His blood to cover known and unconquered moral defects of character?" Yes. HE lived the perfect life, and fulfilled ALL righteousness. HE paid for every sin I will ever commit. And if I have not instantly become a bible-carrying vegetarian sabbath-keeper, even if I know this to be right, His blood covers me when I accept it, and TURN FROM or TURN TOWARDS - which is the meaning of conversion. The TURN, not the arrival, is the whole point. The rest will follow according to God's timetable. Otherwise, all christians through the ages would have believed the same things. They didn't, and truth has been revealed progressively.

"And what is the standard He has given for all who believe in Him to reach? "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" [Matt. 5:48]. As God is perfect in His high sphere of action, so man may be perfect in his human sphere. The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. There is opened before us a path of continual advancement. We have an object to reach, a standard to gain, which includes everything good and pure and noble and elevated. There should be continual striving and constant progress onward and upward toward perfection of character. " Im not sure what you see in this, but I see movement towards perfection, "continual advancement" "toward perfection of character". Man's "human sphere" is continual advancement TOWARDS Christlikeness.

When do we experience moral perfection? No. When do we experience salvation, which brings everything else in its train? At the moment of the change in direction, when we become grafted to the Vine.

As to your quotes - and I don't think I can address each one - I will comment on some.

I think some of my post was chopped off. I didn't mean to be so long-winded. I've lost the thoughts, now.

Just a question: in the sanctuary service, what did the priest do, and what did the common man do?

Mike - here is the quote I referred to before:

"The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Three, page 80, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: In the Outer Court
Jesus now resumed his discourse where he had left it: "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." In the act of Christ dying for the salvation of man, Heaven was not only made accessible to man, but God and his Son were justified before all Heaven in dealing with the rebellion of Satan, and in his expulsion. The blot which Satan had placed upon Heaven itself was thus to be washed away; and no sin could ever more enter there to all eternity."

Zyph, I think the most prudent thing that I can say at this point in the discussion is - Amen. Truly Jesus, and all heaven, is interested in our salvation. He doing everything in His power to save us in His eternal kingdom of love.

If my preoccupation with moral perfection and ceasing from known sin gives you the impression that I believe living without sin is more important than keeping our eyes on Jesus, then by all means, I repent before you and God. I doubt you were looking for a confession, but your last post made me realize that I failed to make Jesus the center of this discussion.

I wish I had been more careful to point to Jesus as our altogether wonderful example of what it means to grow in grace and to develop mentally, emotionally, morally and spiritually as born again believers. Just as Jesus continually advanced in moral perfection, as He matured from childhood to manhood, so too I have assumed that we may also follow in His foot steps.

Apparently Jesus was not incarnated with a fully developed character. It looks as though He perfected a spotless character over time through test, trial and temptation.

The Youth's Instructor, December 28, 1899, paragraph 7
"Christ is the Captain of our salvation. "It became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." The suffering that poured in upon the Son of God is beyond anything that man will be called to endure; yet Christ overcame, and perfected a spotless character. By his suffering and resistance he made plain to man that perfection of character can be obtained and maintained by humanity."

God's Amazing Grace, page 324, paragraph 2
"When the truth is received, it will work radical changes in life and character; for religion means the abiding of Christ in the heart, and where He is, the soul goes on in spiritual activity, ever growing in grace, ever going on to perfection."

God's Amazing Grace, page 230, paragraph 3
"Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled."

It would seem that Jesus perfected a spotless character in the same manner we must. This would suggest that being perfect and perfecting a spotless character are two different yet related experiences. Going on unto perfection, advancing onward, upward, and toward perfection is something that even Jesus Himself experienced throughout His lifetime here on earth. Thus it would seem that this same spiritual path is the one we must traverse if we are to follow in the steps of Jesus.

Does that sound right to you?

Mike, Jesus' WAS born with a spotless character. He grew up, but he started as a baby the way we start at our New birth. However, He didn't have the momentum of sin that we contend wit. Yes, I know he had a harder time than we do, because of who He was and His mission, as well as his powers as God.

I'm not saying we can't develop a perfect character. I guess I'm reacting to the way you present it as a requirement prior to being regarded as converted or saved rather than a promise. And the only perfection is initiated and brought to fruition by God, not us. We make our conscious holy decisions AFTER He has wrought change in us, and ONLY as we remain connected to Him. The second we withdraw from the relationship or connection with Him, perfection ceases to exist. So WE are never morally perfect in ourselves until we are immortal, and even then we will be upheld by His power. "Messages to Young People, p. 254 Christ is mediating in behalf of man, and the order of unseen worlds also is preserved by His mediatorial work."

But please don't undervalue Justification. His sacrifice was enough, and we are allowed to die with unresolved issues if we have turned from sin, and are travelling towards Him. To say that we are not saved because we have not instantly emptied our bellies of beer, still crave cigarettes, and the thousand other things God will lead us to attend to, is to add works to the requirements of salvation, and Paul says "not by works, lest any man should boast". Obedience FOLLOWS conversion, it doesn't initiate it.