David, I feel like you caught me cheating or something. But I'm not sure what I'm guilty of. Man, I feel like I need to apologize. But I need your help. I used that EGW quote to demonstrate that understanding (and experiencing) the truth about character perfection is important. What did you think I meant?

"God will not utterly forget nor forever forsake those who have
been faithful, even if they sometimes commit errors." 3T 88.

This doesn't sound like perfection.
Mike, I don't have time to respond to your post, sorry. I'll have to later.

Zyph, great quote. But do you really think it undermines what the Bible says about the gift of perfection?

As I see it, the gift of moral perfection is a reality as long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. But if we take our eyes off Jesus and resurrect the old man and slip back into sin, then the promises of perfection do not apply to us at that point in time.

But we are not forever lost, without hope, if we do find ourselves in a state of sin. By the way, it's important to note that the Bible doesn't say a born again believer will sin. Instead, it says "if any man sin" (1 John 2:1,2). And if we do sin, Jesus is quick to motivate us to receive the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake that sin, and gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us back to the mind of the new man.

And the promises of moral perfection apply to those Christians who have established a vital connection to Jesus, and are abiding in His love and grace, and are experiencing Spirit empowered growth and development, maturing in the fruit of Spirit - the same as Jesus did as He grew from childhood to manhood.

Even if we do slip in and out of sin from time to time it doesn't disprove what the Bible says about moral perfection while we are abiding in Jesus. The truth about perfection is only true about the new man experience. Whether or not we are morally perfect at any given point in time depends on whether or not we are in Christ. See 2 Cor 5:17.

By morally perfect I do not mean to say we are morally mature the very moment we experience the miracle of conversion. We begin as babes in Christ, just as Jesus began as a baby. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. And just like Jesus possessed all the attributes of God, all the fruit of the Spirit, we also inherit the same along with the free gift of the sinless seed of the new man.

Notice these encouraging promises:

"The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

"God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

I forgot to mention something. When I share these thoughts with others, sometimes people get the idea that I'm suggesting there is no room for growth and development after we've experienced the miracle of conversion.

So, let me make it clear that I'm not saying we are morally mature the day we receive the sinless seed of the new man. Just because we're born again morally perfect does not mean that we are born again morally mature. To be born again morally perfect means to be born again morally complete. Nothing is missing that we'll need to receive later on. We're not born again morally defective or handicapped.

Jesus is an example of what it means to be born morally perfect. It means that not one attribute or fruit is missing at birth. But Jesus was not born morally mature. He had to grow and develop from childhood to manhood. As He grew He matured in each one of the fruit and attributes of God.

He wasn't born missing this or that fruit or attribute. He didn't have to acquire any of them later on. He was born with all of them. Just like a plant seed comes fully equipped and as it grows its various attributes unfold.

And that's how it is with a born again believer. The sinless seed of the new man comes fully equipped with all the fruit and attributes of God, and they unfold as we grow in grace. Like a light that shines brighter and brighter until the day of God. Prov 4:18.

We grow from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory. See Rom 1:17 and 2 Cor 3:18. After we've been born again the Holy Spirit empowers us to mature in the fruit and attributes of God. And as long as we are connected to Christ they unfold from glory to glory.

We do not accumulate them over the course of a lifetime, as though we did not possess them from the beginning of our rebirth experience. Nor do we spend our lives swapping defective traits for perfected traits until eventually we possess all the attributes of God. Instead, we receive all of them as a gift the moment we're born again, and then we spend the rest of our life maturing in them.

Do you see what I mean?

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

What do the rest of you think about the questions and comments mentioned above?

It's only me - not "the rest of you" I'm afraid.

Mike, you sound like you're saying we will be sinless - at least conscious sin - right from the beginning. If we are sinless, what's to mature?

Zyph, thank you for jumping back in this discussion. I've missed you. In fact, my post twice removed was written with this question in mind. And the best way for me to understand it is to take Jesus as an example of maturing after you're morally sinless.

I think we all might agree that Jesus started off sinless. And yet He grew and developed from childhood to manhood. If we can understand how Jesus matured, even though He was morally sinless, then I think we can begin to understand how it might work with us? I believe Jesus is an example of what life can be for those who are born again. And as long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we may grow and develop in the same way Jesus did. No doubt you've read the many quotes that say exactly that.

How do you see it?

Is moral perfection sinlessness now, or is it on the road to sinlessness when this frail and sinful human body receives a glorious new and sinless body?

Maybe we can answer this by getting more personal.

Can anybody claim moral perfection or sinlessness now? In other words, can anybody claim that they haven't sinned in the last 20 years, 20 months, 20 weeks, 20 days, or even in the last 20 hours?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

If even our diet can influence our morals, then surely the only place we experience moral perfection is when we put on immortality.

What you say about the absolute victory obtainable is true, Mike. But it's confusing when you phrase things in such a way that you seem to imply our natures can be perfect like Jesus. I don't think we have the tuning equipment to maintain contact constantly at first. Even though our contact will bring victory, we are imperfect, or immature when it comes to maintaining the contact and dependence. As we grow and mature, the perfection at any given time is the same, and obtainable, but we change in our practices, habits, and ability to obtain and maintain. Our humanity was never perfect in any way. Jesus was born with a perfectly intact spiritual nature and connection to God. He matured from the point of perfection. We begin when we are born again, and so I think it's different for us. There is a process of coming to God which Jesus didn't go through. Moses sinned on the border of the promised land. We always have the capacity to fall and fail. Victory is a wonderful and true promise. But until we are glorified, we are still human, and the word perfection should be used sparingly.

Compliments of the season, Mike. And to you, too, Daryl.

Daryl, great question. Thank you. Have you noticed I've been careful to single out "moral perfection" and that I've gone to great pains to say mental perfection is on-going and that physical perfection occurs when Jesus rewards us with sinless flesh when He returns?

If a morally converted person is in that state because he has his eyes firmly fixed upon Jesus, then how and why would he go around boasting - I haven't sinned in... (however long). How can they be self-focused when they have their eyes on Jesus? Is that what morally perfect people are supposed do? Will they do that in the New Earth? Does mentioning this absurd situation somehow prove we can't experience moral perfection the moment we're born again?

Was moral perfection and moral sinlessness a reality for Jesus? Are they not in fact the same thing? Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom 8:3), thus it is obvious His flesh was not sinless. But does that mean He was any less morally perfect? If we can answer yes to these questions, then in what way is a born again believer different than Jesus?

Zyph, why should we be afraid of the word perfection? Why should we be careful with the word? If perfection is the foundation of the promises of God, shouldn't we rather be thrilled about the word? Is our only other recourse the one Daryl insinuated? That is, if we believe in conversion and moral perfection, they way it's outlined in the Bible and the SOP, must we go around and boast that we haven't sinned in such and such amount of time?

Did Jesus really have an advantage over us because He never sinned? Or was this apparent advantage offset through the strength of the temptations He resisted? I mean, 1 Cor 10:13 says God will not allow our temptations to be any stronger than He can empower us to resist unto His honor and glory. As our ability to resist strengthens so do our temptations. So, did Jesus have an advantage not available to us?

HP 166.4 "Be ye therefore perfect" (Matt. 5:48) is God's word to us. And in order that we might obey this word, He sent His only-begotten Son to this earth to live in our behalf a perfect life. We have before us His example, and the strength by which He lived this life is at our disposal. In thought, word, and act Jesus was sinless. Perfection marked all that He did. He points us to the path that He trod, saying, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24).

3 SM 355.4 We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus, the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; complete in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection.-- Signs of the Times, March 23, 1888.

4 SP 302.1 Those who are truly seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. The more their minds dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to his divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own weakness and defects. Those who claim to be without sin, give evidence that they are far from holy. It is because they have no true knowledge of Christ that they can look upon themselves as reflecting his image. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes.

BE & ST 2-21-1898 Those who have felt the sanctifying and transforming power of God, must not fall into the dangerous error of thinking that they are sinless, that they have reached the highest state of perfection, and are beyond the reach of temptation. The standard the Christian is to keep before him is the purity and loveliness of Christ's character. Day by day he may be putting on new beauties, and reflecting to the world more and still more of the divine image.

18 MR 99.2 Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts, including the one relating to the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, the day that He blessed and sanctified, "because that in it He had rested from all His work" (Gen. 2:3).

DA 311.3 The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.

DA 664.4 "Verily, verily, I say unto you," Christ continued, "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also." The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity. He came to the world to display the glory of God, that man might be uplifted by its restoring power. God was manifested in Him that He might be manifested in them. Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.

SD 294.2 Christ has left us a perfect, sinless example. His followers are to walk in His footsteps. If they are not transformed in character, they can never dwell with Him in His kingdom. Christ died to elevate and ennoble them, and those who retain hereditary tendencies to wrong can not dwell with Him. He suffered all that it is possible for human flesh to suffer and endure, that we might pass triumphantly through all the temptations Satan may invent to destroy our faith.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]