Mike, we should be careful of the word, "perfection" because of its meaning. "Victory" is a clearer term when we are discussing overcoming.

Although we can be as saved as it is possible to be on this planet, we are NOT saved until the Rescuer arrives for us, and takes us home. Everything else may be factual, but it is a reality only through faith. And it is not a finished work.

Although we can accept the gift of overcoming, and the gift is perfect, WE are not perfect until we put on immortality. And therefore, prior to that work being finished, we can fall and fail.

If you believe perfection is obtainable, and you believe it is a condition of salvation - or a by-product - then where is the problem in assessing your own level of perfection? You say that to do this is to take your eyes off Jesus. Bingo! You have defined the problem. Discussing or focussing on perfection as a goal or object - or even a concept - causes us to look away from Jesus.

Zyph, did you mean to imply that we must take our eyes off Jesus in order to study the subject of character perfection? Or did I misunderstand you?

I guess it never occurred to me that the word "perfection" is a bad word or a word to be avoided. I have always thought of it as the ultimate gift of God, something to be cherished and desired. "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people." DA 671.

If perfection of character is a gift reserved for those who make it to heaven, then what do all the promises of perfection mean for us today? And did you mean to say that in heaven we will lose the ability to fail and fall? As I understand it, the plan of salvation restores us to the place Adam and Eve occupied in Eden. Thus, we never do lose the ability to sin, but according to God's foreknowledge He can promise that we will never choose to exercise our ability to sin.

What do you think?

Perfection is both a process, and a destination. Justification is the process by which we are regarded as having lived a perfect life - even though we haven't. Sanctification is the process by which God teaches us how to allow Him to will and to do in and through us, instead of fighting sin in our own strength. Glorification is the process by which we are changed to perfection of body and character. There IS no perfection as a noun in our lives. But we are REGARDED as perfect from day one of Justification through to Glorification, as long as we maintain our walk with Christ. And advancement towards perfection - the on-going PROCESS of perfection (perfecting, if you will) continues even after glorification, as we ceaselessly approach further understanding and imitation of God.

Victory over besetting sin isn't perfection. It's an irresistable symptom of walking with the Lord, and brings glory to His name. (See the 23rd Psalm)

I haven't read all the references to perfection, Mike, but if you read the one you quoted as process, it still makes sense. Have a look at the other ones.

Sorry - just re-read your post. Yes, I read an Ellen White quote a few days ago that said we would be unable to sin again after glorification, because there would be no more tests, and the issue had been decided. I'm wildly mis-quoting, probably, but that was the gist. I'll try to find it again.

Zyph, thank you for your engaging observations. May I also say I very much appreciate studying with you. Just a thought - If we will be unable to sin in the New Earth, then why didn't God make Adam and Eve that way in the first place?

I like the thought you shared about the process of perfection continuing even after we're glorified with a sinless flesh nature. Which leads me to wonder if character perfection has anything to do with not sinning or overcoming so-called unknown defects of character? Seems to me character perfection has to do with reproducing the lovely character of Christ more and more unto the perfect day. Prov 4:18.

Notice these quotes:

Christ's Object Lessons, page 384, paragraph 2
Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within-- when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance.

Conflict and Courage, page 110, paragraph 4
God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer.

The Desire of Ages, page 311, paragraph 3
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.

The Signs of the Times, June 5, 1884, paragraph 12
There is no excuse for continuing in sin. No man is obliged to do evil, and be lost. Every one who perishes destroys his own soul. The provisions of grace are ample. Jesus is pleading in our behalf, and there is mercy for even the most guilty and sinful. Let us take hold of the strength of Jesus. He loves us with a love that is inexpressible; let us respond to that love.

The Watchman, February 4, 1908, paragraph 6
But by faith and prayer all may meet the requirements of the gospel. No man can be forced to transgress God's holy law. Temptation, however strong, is no excuse for sin; for divine grace is sufficient for us, and "the Lord's eyes are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers."

Manuscript Releases Volume Nine, page 233, paragraph 3
There is no excuse for man to remain in transgression and sin, because strength has been provided for him in Jesus, that he may overcome. The God of heaven Himself is working by His Spirit.

Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 144, paragraph 2
Let no one excuse his sin by saying, "It will not matter; it is only a little thing." That sin, small though it may seem to you, may cause the loss of a soul.

Sermons and Talks Volume Two, page 294, paragraph 3
Without perfection of character no one can enter the pearly gates of the city of God, for if, with all our imperfections, we were permitted to enter that city, there would soon be in heaven a second rebellion. We must first be tried and chosen, and found faithful and true. Upon the purification of our character rests our only hope of eternal life.

Sermons and Talks Volume One, page 247, paragraph 2
The law cannot save you, but it is the standard of character, and to represent the character of Jesus Christ you must live the law, for He lived the law in our world. Paul says, "I have taught them from house, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." (See Acts 20:20,21.) This is the way. We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, "Cleanse us and change us"? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. "I and the Father are one." He was in the express image of the Father's person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ.

Manuscript Releases Volume Nineteen, page 117, paragraph 2
The living God has given in His holy law a transcript of His character. The greatest Teacher the world has ever known is Jesus Christ. And what is the standard He has given for all who believe in Him to reach? "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" [Matt. 5:48]. As God is perfect in His high sphere of action, so man may be perfect in his human sphere. The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. There is opened before us a path of continual advancement. We have an object to reach, a standard to gain, which includes everything good and pure and noble and elevated. There should be continual striving and constant progress onward and upward toward perfection of character. (See 2 Tim. 3:14-17; Rom. 15:4; Col. 2:8-10.)

Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 202, paragraph 1
The luster of Christ's jewels depends on the polishing that they receive. God does not compel us to be polished. We are left free to choose to be polished or to remain unpolished. But everyone who is pronounced worthy of a place in the Lord's temple must submit to the polishing process. He must consent to have the sharp edges cut away from his character, that it may be shapely and beautiful, fitted to represent the perfection of Christ's character.

Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 389, paragraph 1
When we reflect Christ's image, we shall love one another as He has loved us. We shall not love as we love our neighbor, but as Christ loved us. It is an advance to love as Christ loved. This is the perfection of Christian character. When we can say, My will is wholly submerged in God's will, then peace and rest come in.

Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 151, paragraph 1
We are privileged to receive from Christ all the excellence necessary for perfection of character. But in order for us to obtain this excellence, we must show more self-denial, more self-sacrifice. . . .

Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 49, paragraph 4
Let every professed believer advance. We are to have sanctified, refined aspirations, worthy ambitions. Ever press onward, seeking for a character that will represent that of the Lord Jesus. We are to recognize the perfection of His character, and demonstrate in our lives the principles of that character.

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Zyph, I'm sorry for all the quotes. I know it can be overwhelming. From the quotes listed above I gather that perfection of character is a gift we receive the moment we surrender ourselves totally to Jesus, and that this gift continues to blossom and flourish as walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. While on this path we are also empowered to resist sin, self and Satan unto the honor and glory of God.

But I find it hard to believe that character perfection is the process of becoming less and less sinful and defective over the course of a lifetime. I'm not saying that's what you're saying. The very words "character perfection" suggests the opposite. They imply a process whereby character is being built up rather than being torn down or remodeled.

The Desire of Ages, page 172, paragraph 1
Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

Touching on what you wrote about justification. Can Jesus legally justify applying the benefits of His blood to cover known and unconquered moral defects of character? If there is no excuse for sin, and if ample power from above is available to recognize and resist any and every species of temptation, then how can we assume there is any such thing as an unknown defect of character?

Can you name a defect of character which a born again, Spirit-filled believer might unwittingly possess without realizing it? I can see this being true before we experience the miracle of rebirth, during the pre-conversion process where the Holy Spirit is leading us step by step to give up everything for Jesus. But I can't imagine it being true afterwards.

What do you think?

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, if you read Desire of Ages, you'll find that God had to allow man to be tempted because Satan had already introduced rebellion. In the new earth, the source of rebellion is gone. And we've shown which Power we want to control us. We are told sin will never arise again. Perhaps it's a sealing process which simply permanently confirms our commitment. I don't really know. But I do know we aren't turned into robots, and that our love for God will be voluntarily offered. I don't know how unhappy I would have been if I'd been made unable to sin, or how unhappy God would have been, but I look around me at the suffering and misery on this planet, and I wish He would flip the switch now. (And this is the point where you leap in and say...lol)

I haven't looked for the statement I referred to. And I might have to digest some of your post.

"Which leads me to wonder if character perfection has anything to do with not sinning or overcoming so-called unknown defects of character? Seems to me character perfection has to do with reproducing the lovely character of Christ more and more unto the perfect day. Prov 4:18." Moral perfection, too? Jesus comes in and pushes out all else? But doesn't it take time for all else to leave, Mike? And in the process, aren't we regarded as the Lord's?

Doesn't "conversion" mean "to turn from or towards"? Surely the travelling happens AFTER we have turned.

Justification is right up there with Sanctification. I am justified when I turn from my old life. But I might have a belly full of beer, or I might have just killed a man. I might not understand how to connect with God fully, so I am still prone to sin, and too weak in my own strength to not sin. But I have turned, and I am heaven-bound. Now, if I die of a heart attack, am I saved? Was Jesus' sacrifice good enough for me, to fulfil the righteousness that I was unable to fulfil?

Justification doesn't stop at coversion, with Sanctification kicking in and taking over. Ellen White says we will often have to weep at the feet of Jesus. Why weep if we are morally perfect? If we have to change PRIOR to conversion, how do you explain "Come unto me, and I will give you rest"?

Like many of my posts, this is a bit all over the place, and I haven't systematically sat down to find specific responses to everything you said. I will try to do this, but I really wanted to respond to just a couple of things quickly.

Mike, I will return the appreciative noises. I have formed the impression that you are a caring christian man, and I respect that. I don't always see things in the same way, and I'm a poor (for "poor" read "lazy") scholar these days. Unlike some people, I dislike debate. It can lead to negative feelings in everyone (and I am the chief sinner!) I am interested in some things, and am willing to discuss them in order to increase my own (and others') understanding. And you debate peaceably, which is much appreciated.

Mike, you have said before that you can't or won't comment on your own moral perfection. But Jesus told the demoniac to go and tell people what the Lord had done for him. If this subject is good news for you, and it has been demonstrated to be true in your life, surely you should share some of your own experience which illustrates your point. This is not a sarcastic challenge. I am sincerely asking for your testimony. After all, some of God's workings are recorded in lives, and not in the written word. And who can argue with a life?

Zyph, thank you for the noise? You have a cute way of putting it. And I like the way you explained why we won't choose to sin in the New Earth.

Is the man whose belly is full of beer a converted Christian if he accepts Jesus as His personal Saviour in that condition? Was Nicodemas converted the night before he met with Jesus? Was Peter converted before the night he wept? Perhaps these quotes can help answer these question:

DA 172.3 "By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process."

DA 175.5 "The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8."

SC 47.2 "Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians."

These passages seem to say that conversion is a when-then miraculous experience that is the result of months and perhaps years of wooing and winning by the Holy Spirit. When someone like the man full of beer begins to respond favorably to the winsome ways of the Spirit - I believe the quotes above indicate that he has entered the path that will lead him to conversion.

According to Sister White conversion is a radical transformation, which is rare in this age of the world:

47 16.4 "We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad. True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ."

6BC 1075.7 "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ."

6BC 1101.1 "The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again."

RH 7-30-1901 "Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of fault-finding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ.

"No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within. Faith passes into knowledge, and the word of God is understood. The branch becomes a living part of the Vine."

Again, these quotes clearly teach that there is more to conversion than the first steps we take toward swapping a life of sin for a life of abiding in Christ. Are we saved during this process that ultimately leads to conversion? I suppose that depends on our state of mind at the moment of death and also upon God's knowledge of the future. If we're one of those half baked, half converted, so-called Christians then I doubt we'll rise up with the saved in the first resurrection. But if we were rapidly traveling along the path of conversion, I'm quite sure we would be admitted to the kingdom of God.

Is that how you see things?

Zyph, I agree that justification and sanctification work hand in hand. However, I also believe that Jesus cannot justify covering known moral defects of character. Ample provision is available to live without possessing or committing known moral sins. But if we excuse known sin in any way, then we are in essence suggesting that resisting sin somehow depends on our ability to accomplish it on our own.

The same thing that God does to empower us to resist even the slightest temptation is the same thing He does to enable us to resist all the temptations He allows to test and grow our faith in Him. At least that's idea I get from reading all those quotes I posted a couple posts back.

Can I share a personal testimony that helps validate what I've been sharing about conversion? Well, this much I can say without endangering my soul. When I'm right with Jesus, when I'm walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, when I keep my eyes firmly fixed upon Jesus, I believe I am experiencing the promises of God.

I can say with Paul - Jesus empowers me to fight a good fight, and to keep the faith. 2 Tim 4:7. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20.

However, I can also tell when I'm not in the state of mind as described above. And then I experience a separate set of truths - the truth about sinning and repenting. But I do not believe for one minute that my personal short comings derail the truth as it is in Jesus. Our Lord is the ultimate example. His life proves the promises are true. And so do our lives - when they are in harmony with the conditions of the promises.

Furthermore, my own precious wife, who knows me better than any other mortal on earth, just told me the other day that my life in Jesus is the most convincing thing that led her to believe the promises of God. Naturally she's my wife and so perhaps her words do not carry much weight, but they were as sweet as honey to me.

I hope that helps?

I have had the opportunity to follow some of this discussion. I would like to throw a thought in for general consumption, don't know that it will change anything.
I like to think of perfection of going into the sanctuary. When you go into the sanctuary you are surrounded by a white curtain, the righteousness of Jesus. In order to get into the sanctuary you had to go through the rent in the vail, the wound in Christ's side. When you get into the sanctuary you have to be anointed by the Holy Spirit and washed by the prophets. Then you get to go to the altar and both accept the sacrifice for you AND you have to get on the altar yourself. At anytime you can always call a halt and go back outside of the sanctuary, what we would call backsliding. Outside of the sanctuary are the heathen. But if you are willing to get on the altar, with the assistance of the High Priest you, the old you, will be consumed. While you are being consumed you still are to participate in all the other functions of the sanctuary, the Lords supper at the laver, the witnessing at the candlestick, the participating in the Word at the table of shewbread, the prayers at the incense, the accepting of mercy at the mercy seat, the writing of the law in your hearts and mind, the intercessory experience of letting the High Priest represent you and deliver you from sin.
All of these and more are occuring when you are in the sanctuary. None of this can be done on your own. But none of it can be done without your cooperation and approval.

One last thought. I like to think of the white curtain as being gauze. We are surrounded by perfect gauze filled with the balm of Gilead. As we are in the sanctuary this balm is penetrating our souls and bringing about the change from sinner to saint. We are forensically perfect when we go into the sanctuary and we are being changed into perfect beings while in the sanctuary. When the High Priest finishes the Most Holy Place activities He will grant you the perfect body to go with the perfect character and God will be all in all.