I believe conversion - "turning" - is precisely that. The moment you have made a decision to follow Christ, you are converted. You might not be very good at allowing Him to control you. You might have many things to learn about the faith relationship. You might not even know about the Sabbath, but you have decided to follow, or walk with Him. And the disciples - except for Judas - had totally committed their lives to Jesus. They HAD given up homes and jobs and families (Mark 10:28). Peter was completely committed after he repented of denying Christ, which indicates that there had been a period of growth prior to this, when he was still a "plant", but an immature one.

Hi Zyph,

I think this is where we differ. It is in what we consider to be conversion. Conversion to me is reaching that point in our relationship with God where we truly understand that we can't do anything on our own power and surrender our will completely. Up until that point we have divided loyalties. We want to do things our own way, rather than God's way. While we may wish to be converted while we are in the position of trusting partly to us, and partly to God, we aren't.

To turn again, as you said, means to go in the opposite direction. Since a relationship with God and conversion are all about surrender of all of us, we aren't going in the opposite direction of our former life when we aren't fully surrendered. We are still tracking along on the same old trail. We may be saying different things, and doing different things, but our motivation hasn't had that inner cleansing yet, as per the lesson from Peter's life. It is our inner motivations that truly matter, for it is what comes out of the heart of a man that defiles him.

Go read Jesus' statements about those who won't, or don't leave all to follow Him. He says that they aren't worthy of Him.

We have many idols, but the biggest one of all is self. Until that is completely surrendered, we are basically still idolators in my estimation.

So until we reach your idea of conversion we are not saved?

I can remember praying a few years back and telling God what sins I wanted to conquer in my life next. I had it all planned out just how my sanctification ought to go. Do you think it was successful? Hardly! It taught me a great lesson. I was still not converted. I wanted to tell God how to do things. Just like Peter before the crucifixion.

Zacchaeus did that to Jesus, but Jesus didn't correct him.

I'd like to add here that Enoch, Daniel, and Elisha are the only people mentioned in scripture who became converted, and no sin was ever recorded against their name afterward. How do you explain that?

Zyph,

You are reading more into my statements than I said. What I said was we have to come to a state of complete surrender. Peter made a mistake or two after his conversion, but, and this is a large but, he was not the same person after his conversion as he was before.

Surrender of self (conversion) is accompanied by an attitude that was not previously present in the life: one of complete trust in God. Rather than partly trusting to self, and partly trusting to God. This trust in God results in the changes seen in the life because it allows God to cleanse the soul of sin. (He can't take what we won't give Him.)

quote:

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Evangelism, page 286, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Clinching the Interest
Helping Souls to Be Converted
The Experience of Genuine Conversion.--I have been shown that many have confused ideas in regard to conversion. They have often heard the words repeated from the pulpit, "Ye must be born again." "You must have a new heart." These expressions have perplexed them. They could not comprehend the plan of salvation.

Many have stumbled to ruin because of the erroneous doctrines taught by some ministers concerning the change that takes place at conversion. Some have lived in sadness for years, waiting for some marked evidence that they were accepted by God. They have separated themselves in a large measure from the world, and find pleasure in associating with the people of God; yet they dare not profess Christ, because they fear it would be presumption to say that they are children of God. They are waiting for that peculiar change that they have been led to believe is connected with conversion.

Others fall into a more dangerous error. They are governed by impulse. Their sympathies are stirred, and they regard this flight of feeling as an evidence

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that they are accepted by God and are converted. But the principles of their life are not changed. The evidences of a genuine work of grace on the heart are to be found not in feeling, but in the life. "By their fruits," Christ declared, "ye shall know them."

Many precious souls, desiring earnestly to be Christians, are yet stumbling in darkness, waiting for their feelings to be powerfully exercised. They look for a special change to take place in their feelings. They expect some irresistible force, over which they have no control, to overpower them. They overlook the fact that the believer in Christ is to work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

The convicted sinner has something to do besides repent; he must act his part in order to be accepted by God. He must believe that God accepts his repentance, according to His promise. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

The work of grace upon the heart is not an instantaneous work. It is effected by continuous, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one, who cherishes faith and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ, God will not turn away empty. He will give him grace. And ministering angels will aid him as he perseveres in his efforts to advance.-- Manuscript 55, 1910.

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I think that this quote is a pretty good definition of what conversion is. It isn't just a feeling, it isn't just a statement of belief, but is an earnest desiring to be cleansed of sin and a moment by moment trusting in God to cleanse us from sin, while we at the same time turn to God for the power and grace to change our characters in each and every temptation.

Can we still fail, falter, or sin, yes. We aren't perfect yet, but we do have an attitude that in harmony with God's will for us. Thus we grow in grace. Who is to say who is perfect? Even those men in the Bible who lived the closest to God never claimed perfection for themselves. To say I am perfect is not something any truly trusting, believeing servant of God would say, for he will understand that without His power any reflection of Jesus in his life is not of his own making. We can cooperate in the perfecting of our characters, but we can never accomplish anything on our own.

Do I think that a person who has a perfected character is beyond sinning? No. Not until after the 2nd coming.

I'm sorry, but I don't think God gives the ability to heal people and cast out demons to the unconverted, yet Peter was one who did this prior to his "turning again".

Judas was not converted ever. Yet Jesus empowered him to work miracles, just like Peter. The miracle working power was because the Lord temporarily invested Judas & all the rest of the twelve as His representatives.
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“2 (ch. 15:1-8; see EGW on Luke 22:3-5). Judas a Dry Sapling.-- Judas . . . did not become transformed, and converted into a living branch through connection with the True Vine. This dry sapling adhered not to the Vine until it grew into a fruitful, living branch. He revealed that he was the graft that did not bear fruit--the graft that did not, fiber by fiber and vein by vein, become knit with the Vine, and partake of its life. {5BC 1138.4}
The dry, disconnected sapling can become one with the parent vine stock only by being made a partaker of the life and nourishment of the living vine, by being grafted into the vine, by being brought into the closest relationship possible. Fiber by fiber, vein by vein, the twig holds fast to the life-giving vine, until the life of the vine becomes the life of the branch, and it produces fruit like that of the vine (RH Nov. 16, 1897). {5BC 1138.5}
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Before Jesus’s trial Peter was not converted in the sense of full surrender & letting Jesus be the boss.
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“But Peter ardently affirmed that although all others should be offended because of Him, he would not be offended. Jesus said to Peter: "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31,32. {EW 166.1}
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“The church of Christ on earth will be imperfect, but God does not destroy His church because of its imperfection. There have been and will be those who are filled with zeal not according to knowledge, who would purify the church, and uproot the tares from the midst of the wheat. But Christ has given special light as to how to deal with those who are erring, and with those who are unconverted in the church. There is to be no spasmodic, zealous, hasty action taken by church members in cutting off those they may think defective in character. Tares will appear among the wheat; but it would do more harm to weed out the tares, unless in God's appointed way, than to leave them alone. While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God. {TM 46.1}

Judas Given Opportunities

Jesus knew that Judas was defective in character, but notwithstanding this, He accepted him as one of the disciples, and gave him the same opportunities and privileges that He gave to the others whom He had chosen. Judas was left without excuse in the evil course he afterward pursued. Judas might have become a doer of the word, as were eventually Peter and James and John and the other disciples. Jesus gave precious lessons of instruction, so that those who were associated with Him might have been converted, and have no need of clinging to the defects that marred their characters. {TM 46.2}

The Church Not Perfect

Some people seem to think that upon entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and meet only with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their faith, and when they see faults in church members, they say, "We left the world in order to have no association with evil characters, but the evil is here also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the parable, "From whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be thus disappointed, for the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the conclusion that the church is perfect; and all our zeal will not be successful in making the church militant as pure as the church triumphant. The Lord forbids us to proceed in any violent way against those whom we think erring, and we are not to deal out excommunications and denunciations to those who are faulty. {TM 47.1}

Finite man is likely to misjudge character, but God does not leave the work of judgment and pronouncing upon character to those who are not fitted for it. We are not to say what constitutes the wheat, and what the tares. The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man. {TM 47.2}

False doctrine is one of the satanic influences that work in the church, and brings into it those who are unconverted in heart. Men do not obey the words of Jesus Christ, and thus seek for unity in faith, spirit, and doctrine. They do not labor for the unity of spirit for which Christ prayed, which would make the testimony of Christ's disciples effective in convincing the world that God had sent His Son into the world, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." If the unity for which Christ prayed existed among the people of God, they would bear living testimony, would send forth a bright light to shine amid the moral darkness of the world. {TM 47.3}
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“But Judas stopped short of this. He had not received Christ as his personal Saviour. He did not think that his character needed the transforming grace of Christ. In many respects he acted as Christ's disciple. He manifested an interest in his work, and in a certain sense believed on him. But Christ read beneath the surface. He saw the true inwardness of the heart. He knew that Judas was not converted. He was not a true son of God. He had not lost something he once possessed. He had never experienced the soul cleansing, the change of character, that constitutes conversion. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 2}

Judas had valuable qualities, but there were some traits in his character that would have to be cut away before he could be saved. He must be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible. His great hereditary and cultivated tendency to evil was covetousness. And by practise this became a habit which he carried into all his trading. His economical habits developed a parsimonious spirit, and became a fatal snare. Gain was his measurement of a correct religious experience, and all true righteousness became subordinate to this. Christlike principles of uprightness and justice had no room in his life practices. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 3}

When Judas first united with the twelve, he manifested a spirit subordinate to his Master. He loved the great Teacher. He had listened to the parables illustrating the gospel of the kingdom of God, and he desired to be with the man whose teaching he knew to be superior to anything he had ever heard, although it was condemnatory of all pretense, hypocrisy, and avarice. There came to him a desire to be changed in spirit and inclination, and he hoped to experience this by connecting himself with Christ. Yes; in the companionship of Christ, Judas might have found continual strength and aid; he might have co-operated with Christ in overcoming temptation, instead of yielding to the suggestions of Satan. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 4}

Knowing that he was being corrupted by covetousness, Christ gave him the privilege of hearing many precious lessons. He heard Christ laying down the principles which all must possess who would enter his kingdom. He was given every opportunity to receive Christ as his personal Saviour, but he refused this gift. He would not yield his way and will to Christ. He did not practise that which was contrary to his own inclinations; therefore his strong avaricious spirit was not corrected. While he continued a disciple in outward form, and while in the very presence of Christ, he appropriated to himself means that belonged to the Lord's treasury. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 5}

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God was still unknown to Judas as a living God, a loving Father. The life of Judas was not hid with Christ in God. That poor, independent soul, separate from the spirit and life of Christ, had a hard time. He was ever under condemnation, because the lessons of Christ were always cutting him. Yet he did not become transformed, and converted into a living branch through connection with the True Vine. This dry sapling adhered not to the Vine until it grew into a fruitful, living branch. He revealed that he was the graft that did not bear fruit,--the graft that did not, fiber by fiber and vein by vein, become knit with the Vine, and partake of its life. {RH, November 16, 1897 par. 14}

The dry, disconnected sapling can become one with the parent vine stock only by being made a partaker of the life and nourishment of the living vine, by being grafted into the vine, by being brought into the closest relationship possible. Fiber by fiber, vein by vein, the twig holds fast to the life-giving vine, until the life of the vine becomes the life of the branch, and it produces fruit like that of the vine. {RH, November 16, 1897 par. 15}

This is so with the follower of Christ. When he is truly connected with Christ, he will not be like those disciples who were offended because their own minds were not spiritual. They saw the truths that pleased them; but when they came to hear something they could not explain or reason out, because they were not in vital connection with Christ, they were offended. They turned away, and walked no more with him. It was better that these fruitless branches should reveal themselves while Christ was with them. It was for this reason that the words of Christ were spoken, that these disciples might be proved to be just what they were,--not of the faith, but among those that believed not. Just as long as they were with Christ, they revealed a spirit of unbelief. They found the words of Christ opposed to their ideas and maxims, and bore no fruit as branches of the Living Vine. {RH, November 16, 1897 par. 16}

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The history of Judas is written for our learning. He was a betrayer of sacred trusts. He had an opportunity to become converted, heart and soul, to Christ. The Saviour bore long with his perversity and defects of character. He gave no personal rebuke; he dealt with him by revealing principles of righteousness. But this was not enough. Before he left his disciples, he desired them to know the true character of Judas, and he reproved him for his covetousness in rebuking Mary for her use of the ointment. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 8}

Christ washed the feet of Judas. This was the time for Judas to confess his sin, and ask the forgiveness of Christ. This was his opportunity to accept Christ, or to shut the door of his heart against the light. The promptings of the Spirit were repressed. Judas partook of the broken body and spilled blood of his Lord, and went out from the table to betray his Master. He would not receive counsel nor reproof; he was determined to have his own way, to follow his own impulses. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 9}

We have far greater light than Judas had. We have a crucified, risen, and ascended Saviour, who ever liveth to make intercession for us. The Lord reveals to men their danger, and warns them to put away all selfishness, that they may have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. Yet, notwithstanding this, Satan works upon human minds to do as Judas did. The deadly, groveling passions that take possession of the heart in these last days, when self once becomes lifted up, bring all kinds of evil. Those who sympathized with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in their apostasy, brought blight and death upon themselves. So it will be in these last days. The cause of Christ will be betrayed. Those who have had the light of truth, and have enjoyed its blessings, but who have turned away from it, will fight down the Spirit of God. Inspired with a spirit from beneath, they will tear down that which they once built up, and show to all reasonable, God-fearing souls that they can not be trusted. They may lay claim to truth and righteousness, but their spirit and works will testify that they are betrayers of their Lord. The attributes of Satan they call the movings of the Holy Spirit. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 10}

"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 11}

There are but two classes in our world, and they are thus described in the word of God: "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 12}

The warning of Christ comes sounding down the line to our time: "Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 13}

Said Christ: "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 14}

Men will have great opportunities and privileges, and great light; and they will either go forward unto the perfection of Christ's character, or they will follow their own peculiar traits of character. Under the sway of Christ, they will be mild and teachable; under the inspiration of Satan, they will reveal a harsh spirit, and become betrayers of their brethren. They will walk frowardly, in the way of their heart. If those who have light will open the chambers of the mind, they will see as the Lord sees; they will take counsel and reproof; they will open the door of the heart of Jesus, and will welcome him in as an honored guest. Then the soul will be a temple where Christ can dwell. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 15}

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Well I guess little by little, by looking at the revealed stories of the disciples, evidence that explains what conversion & sanctification actually is - will be uncovered.

Conversion is revealed to be:

1. Receiving Christ as your personal Saviour - it is said of Judas that “He had not received Christ as his personal Saviour.”
2. Yielding your will to Jesus Christ your Savior and pick up your own cross and follow Him. Deny the stuff you ought not to do, but crave to do; depending on Jesus in His own time to change your insides.. It is said of Judas that“He would not yield his way and will to Christ. He did not practise that which was contrary to his own inclinations; therefore his strong avaricious spirit was not corrected.”

3. Getting a heart & attitude change from Jesus. It is said of Judas that”He had not lost something he once possessed. He had never experienced the soul cleansing, the change of character, that constitutes conversion.”

Well that’s some basic things about conversion. The post is getting rather long so I will stop for now.

Zyph, I think I understand what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying that being converted and being saved are one and the same thing? If so, then I would agree with you.

But does God consider someone saved who is unwilling to part with their pet sins? If your answer is yes, then I don't agree with you. There really is no excuse for sin since the power of God is available to overcome all known sin. If God has revealed a sin then the power to overcome that sin is available. And hanging on to it is matter of choice and preference. That is considered by God rebellion - not salvation.

God cannot afford to save people who do not take advantage of the agencies He makes available to empower us to live without known sin. To excuse sin is to deny the power of God. People who excuse their sinful choices by pointing to their inherited and cultivated weaknesses assume that living without known sin someone depends on their weaknesses. But the ability and power to live without known sin comes from God, and His ability to empower us to live without known sin does not in any way depend on our weaknesses. If anything He promises to turn our weak points into strong points.

I'm not sure why you're defending a life of known sin, since you have admitted in other places that you believe the promises of God concerning victory over known sin are true and legitimate. Are you playing the devil's advocate, or do you really believe that God considers a person born again and converted even though they are refusing and rejecting His power to live without known sin?

And what about all those quotes I shared about how to deal with church members who are guilty of "open" sin? How do you personally apply those passages? When would you administer them?

Gary, I agree with your thoughts on God tailoring His efforts to draw people to the point of conversion. He uses the same principles but treats each person special.