I may have mentioned this somewhere previously, however, I know a couple who stopped coming to church on account of their addiction to smoking. They feel they must give that up before they can come back to church. They don't realize, or they have forgotten, that all they need to do is to come to Jesus just as they are so that He can do a good work in them.

If we wait until we consider ourself worthy or pefect, then we will never either come to Jesus or come to church.

As a pastor people have said to me, I can't come to church any more because I know in my heart I'm not willing to live up to the standards of the church. In most cases their problem had to do with smoking, drinking, common law relationships or working on the Sabbath.

Are they right in staying away from the church since they are unwilling to leave off this or that certain sin? I think so. I did the same thing when I was back slidden and working on the Sabbath. That is, I quit going to church.

But thank God the church didn't quit coming to me. Friends from the church kept coming around to visit, helping out however they could in tangible ways. Within a year and half I was back in the church, no longer working on the Sabbath.

BTW, in light of conversion, what do the rest of you think about this scripture?

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

This passage tells me that new born babes begin without sin and grow thereafter. Am I misunderstanding this reference?

Hi All,

I see a few people that I recognize from other forums here.

I have a little something to throw in the pot here on this subject of conversion and when it happens. If we take the life of Peter as an example, we see that he had spent 3 years with Jesus, and Jesus told him on the way to the Garden of Gethsemane that he wasn't converted.

quote:

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The influence of the world did not prevail with Peter. He was converted, and after the resurrection of Christ, he was endowed with the Holy Spirit, and then with boldness charged the rulers with their guilt in putting Christ to death. He said, "Ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life." After his conversion, Peter showed that he was an entirely changed man. He was not the self-confident, boasting Peter that he had been before his conversion. And when the enemies of Christ threatened him, and charged him that he should not teach any more in the name of Jesus, and bring this man's blood upon them, their threatening did not intimidate the servant of Christ. He did not turn coward, but with the other apostles proclaimed the name of Christ until they were all shut up in prison.

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We don't see this Peter until on the Sea of Galilee after Christ's resurrection when Jesus stuck the verbal needles into Peter by repeatedly asking Peter if he loved his Master. So, when does conversion take place? I put forward that this is as individual as each persons experience with God. To place a one size fits all in this matter I believe would be greatly damaging to those with whom God works for many years before they finally understand what true conversion is. Only the Holy Spirit can bring this about, and only the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know the correct timing for each individual.

Mike, if you really believe that sinners shouldn't go to church, is that in harmony with Christian belief? Do you stay home if you sin? Sorry, but I'm really shocked at that statement. I was always told church was a hospital for sin-sick people, not an exclusive club for prior overcomers. Maybe we should make the doorways smaller.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Gary, welcome to this forum. I'm glad you've decided to join us. We are a friendly, if not fiesty bunch. I look forward to your future comments. And I very much agree with your post above. Indeed, conversion is a personalized thing. However, don't you also think there are predictable principles that God follows as He draws each one of us to that magical moment?

Zyph, I'm sorry my posts have been so unsettling for you lately. In truth I agree with you that the church is a hospital for sinners. But I think you would agree that there are more than one kind of sinner. There are those who desire to be set free from their defects of character, there are those who choose to cling to their pet sins and do not intend to give them up, and then there are those who want to be free of sin but not do quite understand what is and what is not a sin.

Of these types of sinners I've been talking specifically about those who do NOT intend to give up their pet sins and wish to attend church as though everything were just fine and normal, and even expect the rest of God's people to accept them and fellowship with them as though their sins did not matter.

But the Bible gives very pointed instruction as to how we should associate with these kinds of sinners.

Matthew
18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians
3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

Titus
3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

1 Corinthians
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Romans
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 John
1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Please realize that these Bible passages do not teach us to totally avoid those church members who refuse to walk worthy of their calling and election. It's saying, at least to me, that we should avoid hanging out with them as though their sinful choices mean nothing, but instead we should admonish them and work with them as we would an unconverted person. We must also be careful we don't get sucked into their marginal mind set, that Laodicean lukewarmness. It's a delicate matter to be sure.

But Zyph, please know that I'm not advocating that we should dismiss struggling church members who are sincerely trying to serve God will all their heart, mind, body and soul, who truly want help tapping into the power of God to overcome their weaknesses. These kinds of people are not at all like those who do not want to give up their pet sins.

Does that sound more like what you believe?

Gary K, please read Luke 10:20. If Peter's name was written in the book of life already, why on earth would he not have been converted then?

Mike, I see no scripture that encourages wilful sinners to stay away from church. If God wanted them to stay away, He'd surely have said to lock the doors. Are you going to be the arbiter in who is the wilful sinner? And do you visit absolutely every missing church-goer, being certain that no-one has been missed?

The Good Shepherd goes in search of the missing sheep to bring it IN to the fold. Bo-Peep theology says "They know where to find us as soon as they're willing to be good enough to meet our standards".

Zyph,

I guess that is one question you will have to ask Peter and Jesus. They are the only one that know the answer. We only have Jesus' statement to the fact that Peter hadn't been converted.

quote:

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Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

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What follows is from the Desire of Ages in the chapter titled Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled, page 673.

quote:

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After the hymn, they went out. Through the crowded streets they made their way, passing out of the city gate toward the Mount of Olives. Slowly they proceeded, each busy with his own thoughts. As they began to descend toward the mount, Jesus said, in a tone of deepest sadness, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad." Matt. 26:31. The disciples listened in sorrow and amazement. They remembered how in the synagogue at Capernaum, when Christ spoke of Himself as the bread of life, many had been offended, and had turned away from Him. But the twelve had not shown themselves unfaithful. Peter, speaking for his brethren, had then declared his loyalty to Christ. Then the Saviour had said, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" John 6:70. In the upper chamber Jesus said that one of the twelve would betray Him, and that Peter would deny Him. But now His words include them all.

Now Peter's voice is heard vehemently protesting, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." In the upper chamber he had declared, "I will lay down my life for Thy sake." Jesus had warned him that he would that very night deny his Saviour. Now Christ repeats the warning: "Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny Me thrice." But Peter only "spake the more vehemently, If I should die with Thee, I will not deny Thee in anywise. Likewise also said they all." Mark 14:29, 30, 31. In their self-confidence they denied the repeated statement of Him who knew. They were unprepared for the test; when temptation should overtake them, they would understand their own weakness.

When Peter said he would follow his Lord to prison and to death, he meant it, every word of it; but he did not know himself. Hidden in his heart were elements of evil that circumstances would fan into life. Unless he was made conscious of his danger, these would prove his eternal ruin. The Saviour saw in him a self-love and assurance that would overbear even his love for Christ. Much of infirmity, of unmortified sin, carelessness of spirit, unsanctified temper, heedlessness in entering into temptation, had been revealed in his experience. Christ's solemn warning was a call to heart searching. Peter needed to distrust himself, and to have a deeper faith in Christ. Had he in humility received the warning, he would have appealed to the Shepherd of the flock to keep His sheep. When on the Sea of Galilee he was about to sink, he cried, "Lord, save me." Matt. 14:30. Then the hand of Christ was outstretched

Page 674
to grasp his hand. So now if he had cried to Jesus, Save me from myself, he would have been kept. But Peter felt that he was distrusted, and he thought it cruel. He was already offended, and he became more persistent in his self-confidence.

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Look what Ellen White has to say was the motivating factor behind Peter's behavior--self-confidence--rather than trust in the words of Jesus who knows the heart of each of us. I think it is this trust in self that determines whether or not we are truly converted or not. Jesus told us that we can't serve both God and mammon. Or in other words we can only have one master at a time. If we are full of self-confidence in our own spiritual abilities are we really worshipping God, or are we worshipping ourselves, our ideas, our opinions?

What follows is another quote from Ellen White about Peter before his conversion. This Peter can be seen in the Bible stories that include in very clearly.

quote:

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The Pharisee and the publican represent two great classes into which those who come to worship God are divided. Their first two representatives are found in the first two children that were born into the world. Cain thought himself righteous, and he came to God with a thank offering only. He made no confession of sin, and acknowledged no need of mercy. But Abel came with the blood that pointed to the Lamb of God. He came as a sinner, confessing himself lost; his only hope was the unmerited love of God. The Lord had respect to his offering, but to Cain and his offering He had not respect. The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:3.

For each of the classes represented by the Pharisee and the publican there is a lesson in the history of the apostle Peter. In his early discipleship Peter thought himself strong. Like the Pharisee, in his own estimation he was "not as other men are." When Christ on the eve of His betrayal forewarned His disciples, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night," Peter confidently declared, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Mark 14:27, 29. Peter did not know his own danger. Self-confidence misled him. He thought himself able to withstand temptation; but in a few short hours the test came, and with cursing and swearing he denied his Lord.

When the crowing of the cock reminded him of the words of Christ, surprised and shocked at what he had just

Page 154
done he turned and looked at his Master. At that moment Christ looked at Peter, and beneath that grieved look, in which compassion and love for him were blended, Peter understood himself. He went out and wept bitterly. That look of Christ's broke his heart. Peter had come to the turning point, and bitterly did he repent his sin. He was like the publican in his contrition and repentance, and like the publican he found mercy. The look of Christ assured him of pardon.
Now his self-confidence was gone. Never again were the old boastful assertions repeated.

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[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

The word interpreted "converted" in Luke 22: 32 means "turned again". See the NASB. Therefore, he had been "turned" or converted prior to that.

In your quote from the Desire of Ages, there is this line, "But the twelve had not shown themselves unfaithful." Doesn't this speak for itself?

Could it be that the committed Peter was going to backslide, and from the lessons learned at that time, he would cross a line into a more mature, but no more relevant relationship with Christ?

Isn't there growth allowed in the Christian life? Mark 4: 28, "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head."

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Mike,

I agree that God works by the same principles with each of us. But, we all have different understandings, different starting points, different personalities, different characters, and I truly believe God modifies His approach to fit each on of us.

I don't believe God will work the same way with a person who has been born into the church, is self-righteous, of an outgoing personality and has never suffered any real pain in his life as with a drug addict who was raised without the benefit of any education in the things of God, has been abused as a child, is of a withdrawn type of personality, and has always been scorned and taken advantage of by those who are self-righteous members of the church.

I have spent considerable time in the last ten years studying personality types. In that study I have found each personality will learn differently. Each one will respond differently to outside pressures. Each one will respond differently to shame and guilt. Each one of us has different levels of ability to trust anyone. God has all of these aspects of human psychology, and many more, to deal with in approaching us to convince us to give Him our hearts, hurts, pains, joys, sorrows, and lives. To approach each of these people in the same way would be foolish. Even we as humans are beginning to understand that.

Zyph,

I think that the real question here between us is: what is conversion?

To me conversion means much more than a statement of beleif.

Why don't you explain your idea of conversion and we can go from there? This is an interesting study.