You're doing it again, Mike.

Where did I say it was right to cherish sin? If a child can't act like an adult, does it have to be because they are cherishing their childishness?

Hi Zyph,

If I might butt in just a little here.

I don't see Mike saying what you seem to think he is saying. There is a difference between sin that God has not revealed to a person, and sin that God has revealed to a person and they desperately want to keep. This is the distinction that Mike is making, as I see it anyway.

Mike is allowing for growth as a Christian, and allowing God to be the only Being who reveals sin to an individual. This is not different than what you are saying. All he is saying, is that there is a difference between the sin that we willing give up to Jesus, and the sin that we hang on to. You agree that cherished sin will come between us and God, or so I gather from what I have read from your posts.

God doesn't come down and BOOM smack us upside the head with all of our sins at once. He doesn't even reveal them to each person in the same order or way. I don't see Mike as saying that he does. What I do see Mike saying is this: Our surrender to God will be visible in our attitudes towards sin. If we continue to revel in our sins that attitude will be apparent. And, it those people in the church cause a lot of harm. Just as much damage as those people who go around telling the newborn Christian who has never had any experience in the things of God what evil people they are. Both sides of the road are ditches. Both sides do just as much harm. And actually, both sides are in the same boat. Neither has surrendered their life to God. If critical ones had surrendered they wouldn't be nearly so critical and demanding. The devil has just prepared different ways of keeping us away from Jesus is all.

I really appreciate the struggles that people are putting forth to get clarity. If I may I would like to share a few ideas on the subject. I think that to get to precise on the issue of perfection is a difficult and dangerous ground to be upon, sort of like defining precisely the differences between justification and sanctification.

I would like to try a few examples of conversion and then tackle the Peter and Judas problem. In the flood story all the people had eventually been exposed to the gospel through Noah. Everybody had been told of the impossible event to come. Everybody had the opportunity to decide whether to listen to Noah and have faith in his message or not. They had 120 years to develop and mature their thinking. All of this got summarized down to one event - would they walk up the plank and into the ark or would their thinking stop them. 8 turned and walked the plank and were saved.

The children of Israel went through the plagues with the Egyptians. Both parties saw the same events with some differences in experiences. All could choose to accept God as God. The second to the final event was the Passover experience. Those who believed went through the actions and put the blood on the door post. Those who did not experienced the plague. The next phase of the experience was to leave Egypt and follow Moses. All the Israelites did and a goodly portion of Egyptians went with them. When they got to the Red Sea everybody had another test and that was to walk through the Red Sea. Israel made it through by faith Egypt was drowned by faith. After 10 more trials of faith the Israelites refused to go into Canaan and had to die in the wilderness. Were the ones who died in the wilderness saved or lost?

In the sanctuary service when one went into the sanctuary were they covered in the righteousness of Jesus? When Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire were they protected by the righteousness of Jesus or did they have to die for overt rebellion?

When Achan was at the experience of Baal Peor in Numbers 25 was he in the perfect condition described in Numbers 23:21? When he had the opportunity to develop farther did he die for the same sin that Judas died of, when at Jericho?

When Rahab was practicing her livliehood was she accepted by Jesus? Did He send specific people to rescue her? Did she have the same experience that the Israelites had at the Passover? Was she a Jew by faith and heir according to the promises.

Now let us try Peter. In my opinion Peter was converted when He accepted Jesus as Messiah. He obviously had many more dieings to self to go through. He was converted again when he became aware that he could not protect himself after he denied Jesus. In my opinion he was at the same spot as Judas except that he had not hardened himself to Jesus. He was converted again when Jesus asked him if he loved Him. Now in the next level of conversion was he ready to grant salvation to the gentiles? Not until Jesus had to reprove and correct again. Even then did he go astray with the relapse that Paul had to confront, yes. We have many concepts of how conversion is an ever developing process.

Judas also had an experience with Jesus. He started like we all do. He went into the sanctuary and accepted the righteousness of Jesus. He lived with and for Jesus and Jesus revealed fruit through him. He had major defects of character just as all the disciples had. Jesus loved Judas and Judas loved Jesus. The difference was that as Jesus revealed Judas' defects Judas hardened his heart to reproof. When Jesus washed his feet he could have repented of his deeds right then and Jesus would have saved him but he refused. He so shut off his heart that Jesus could no longer reach him and any offer from Jesus was seen as weakness and was shunned. When that time came Judas had to be seperated from the disciples.

All of us are in the same boat as the disciples. We each have found Jesus to be even on this board. We have each had an experience with Jesus. We have each tried to maintain our experience by either works or our own or by accepting the opportnity to cooperate with Jesus in recreating our characters. Jesus is the master of our development. When each of us has had every opportunity to finish the work and when Jesus is completly satisfied that there is no more work to be done or that there is nothing more that He can do then, and only then, will we be sealed never to be changed.

Zyph, actually I agree with you that a child acts like a child because he is a child. Morris Venden wrote that an apple tree produces apples because it is an apple tree NOT in order to become an apple tree. But in 1 Peter 2:1,2 the Bible says "babes" in Christ are "newborn" believers who have laid aside "all malice, all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings." And if we take what James wrote about controlling our tongues then we must conclude that a "newborn babe" is a "perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2. From this I gather that conversion is nothing short of miracluous.

Gary, thank you for summarizing my thoughts. It's not easy expressing myself online, and I need all the help I can get. Thank you.

Greg, thank you for providing all those examples. It's difficult to assess who is saved and who is lost. But Jesus said, By their fruits ye shall known them. So, if it's in our hearts to imitate Jesus' example, and if we trust the Spirit of God for the power to resist temptation and we expect to be victorious in Christ, then our fruits will bear witness for God.

But during the process of conversion the Holy Spirit is motivating us to lay aside our defects of character - both our cherished and detested imperfections - but not until we have completed this process do we experience the miracle of rebirth or what we call conversion. We are born again morally complete, but we're not born again morally mature. We begin as babes in Christ, and like the baby Jesus we too must grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit.

We may slip in and out of known sin after we've been born again, which, if we do, then we must receive the gift of repentance and be restored to the relationship our sin severed. And we are saved. But if we REFUSE to repent then that sin will keep us out of heaven no matter how religious we are otherwise. We are not saved if we cling to known sin and/or refuse to repent of sin.

Mike:
I took the liberty to copy a section of your last post. This is the area that seems to be causing the problem in the discussion. I will try to highlight the phrasing.

"But during the process of conversion the Holy Spirit is motivating us to lay aside our defects of character - both our cherished and detested imperfections - but not until we have completed this process do we experience the miracle of rebirth or what we call conversion. We are born again morally complete, but we're not born again morally mature. We begin as babes in Christ, and like the baby Jesus we too must grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit.

We may slip in and out of known sin after we've been born again, which, if we do, then we must receive the gift of repentance and be restored to the relationship our sin severed. And we are saved. But if we REFUSE to repent then that sin will keep us out of heaven no matter how religious we are otherwise. We are not saved if we cling to known sin and/or refuse to repent of sin."

It is this concept that the process must be complete before the conversion occurs. In my opinion you have the concept turned around. We are converted/born again, then the healing process from our disease of sin can occur. We are morally complete in Jesus when we are born, yet we have inherited and cultivated moral diseases that must be irradicated. Jesus starts the process, Jesus maintains the process, and Jesus completes the process. But we have a vote in what sins we hold on to and what ones we allow Jesus to remove, just like in elective surgery. We have chosen to be in the hospital and we chose to allow Jesus to remove all the sins or all but one. If we electively choose to hold on to that last one we will be lost. But if we are in process of getting cured then Jesus will complete that which He has started. AMEN!

Greg, I'm so happy you have isolated the part where what I've been emphasizing differs from main stream thinking on the subject of conversion. It is precisely this difference that I'm hoping to establish as the difference between truth and error. I tried to start a thread to address this point but it died out. I'm doing a lousy job of showing from the Bible and the SOP the point of view I hold as true, and it feels as though most people have basically given up on me.

I have quoted dozens of EGW passages which depict conversion as when-then experience that follows the moment we give up everything for Jesus. But they don't seem to make any difference and most people seem to disregard them. Even the 1 Peter 2:1,2 quote and comments in my last post have gone untouched. As well as 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 4:1,2 etc, etc.

I'm not sure why most people overlook the obvious meaning of passages like these and turn them around to mean something different than what they plainly say, but it is clearly the most popular thing to do???? Is there a good reason why we shouldn't take those kinds of promises exactly the way they read?

What a great discussion guys.

I have a comment or two on what Greg copied out of Mike's post and then commented on.

Greg sees what Mike is saying much the same way Zyph sees it. I don't see Mike saying this is about individual sins. I see him talking about the process of the Holy Spirit making us willing to give up whatever it is God is revealing to us that which He finds objectionable and to our own hurt. And not only being willing to surrender that, but what ever else He will continue to show us about ourselves that is harmful to us. (I see sin at it's most basic as those things about us that will hurt us in ways we don't understand. God knows what those hurts and problems will be, and attempts to remove them from us, we just have to be willing to let them go. Sin is very self-destructive at it's core. It is a cancer that will kill us.)

Now when we have become willing to give up anything when God asks it of us, then we have experienced rebirth. Others may not recognize it. We ourselves may not recognize it. But God does, and so will we eventually. Now, at this point of attitude change God hasn't shown us everthing that we will need to change in our lives, but we have already surrendered them in heart to Jesus. The process of working through all those things still must happen, but conversion has happened.

If we haven't become willing to give up all, then we haven't been converted. This is where I differ with Greg. I don't believe that the Bible or the SOP support the idea that Judas ever experienced conversion. He was attracted by the love of Jesus. He might even have liked the idea of changing for a short time, but when he understood it was about giving up on self he said, No, I don't want that. This is why we see the long term problems that he had. He remained a thief in the very presence of the Man he said was God.

Picture this: Judas remained daily in the presence of Jesus for years. He daily had the same type of experience we have when the Holy Spirit draws near to us and our hearts burn within us. And yet while still in that presence he could steal from his fellow disciples and Jesus Himself. And while in that presence he reached the point of being so filled with anger toward Jesus that he was wanted to kill Him for money. Think about this and see if you could imagine doing that while the Holy Spirit is speaking to your hearts.

Do you really think that is being converted?

Jesus was not mistaken when He called Judas a devil. Only a devil could hate in the presence of Supreme love.

I'm copying this from another thread, as it's really the same topic. Please read the following carefully. I apologise for lack of references with some quotes. I can only promise that you'll find them on the E.G. White Estate site. I don't think this is appropriate in a bible study topic, but this seems to be the definitive authority to many.

"In the life of the disciple John true sanctification is exemplified. During the years of his close association with Christ, he was often warned and cautioned by the Saviour; and these reproofs he accepted. As the character of the Divine One was manifested to him, John saw his own deficiencies, and was humbled by the revelation. Day by day, in contrast with his own violent spirit, he beheld the tenderness and forbearance of Jesus, and heard Hislessons of humility and patience. Day by day his heart was drawn out to Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master. The power and tenderness, the majesty and meekness, the strength and patience, that he saw in the daily life of the Son of God, filled his soul with admiration. He yielded his resentful, ambitious temper to the molding power of Christ, and divine love wrought in him a transformation of character.{AA 557.1}

In striking contrast to the sanctification worked out in the life of John is the experience of his fellow disciple, Judas. Like his associate, Judas professed to be a disciple of Christ, but he possessed only a form of godliness. He was not insensible to the beauty of the character of Christ; and often, as he listened to the Saviour's
words, conviction came to him, but he would not humble his heart or confess his sins. By resisting the divine influence he dishonored the Master whom he professed to love. John warred earnestly against his faults; but Judas violated his conscience and yielded to temptation, fastening upon himself more securely his habits of evil. The practice of the truths that Christ
taught was at variance with his desires and purposes, and he could not bring himself to yield his ideas in order to receive wisdom from heaven. Instead of walking in the light, he chose to walk in darkness. Evil desires, covetousness, revengeful passions, dark and sullen thoughts, were cherished until Satan gained full control of him.{AA 557.2}

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and
follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. ***But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other
revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan***." {AA 558.1}"The Acts of the Apostles" by Ellen White. {AA chapter 55 p 557- 567}

This tells me that John was being sanctified progressively, beginning when he began to walk with Jesus. Who gets sanctified? Surely only those who have already become justified. So John was justified, sanctified, walking with Jesus, but continuing to be beset with sins. He was arguing about who would be greatest in the kingdom, and he deserted Jesus when the soldiers came to arrest Him. He didn't stay in that condition, but he was IN that condition, and still regarded as a child of God.

"The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character. . . . If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute. {COL 100.1}, {ST, October 10, 1906 par. 11}, {FLB 116.7}.

There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. {FLB 116.8}, {ML 248.4}, {SL 10.1}, {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 9}

When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun." The Faith I Live By - Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin (It's possible that some references are incorrect, as I cut and pasted some things separately)

So, conversion is when we find peace with God through the atonement, and is the beginning. Then, through the agency of the word of God, which the converted person makes their study, our characters are transformed, but not instantaneously.

"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ, and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes; but we are not to be discouraged. " {FLB 118.4}, {RC 123.4}, {SC 64.1}

"Courage, fortitude, faith, and implicit trust in God's power to save are needed. These heavenly graces do not come in a moment; they are acquired by the experience of years. But every sincere and earnest seeker will become a partaker of the divine nature. His soul will be filled with intense longing to know the fullness of that love which passes knowledge. As he advances in the divine life, he will be better able to grasp the elevated, ennobling truths of the Word of God, until, by beholding, he becomes changed, and is enabled to reflect the likeness of his Redeemer."
{FLB 120.4 read paragraphs 1-6 really great.}, {SW, September 25, 1906 par. 12}

(Sorry - I don't have the references.)

I think it's clear that there is a process of growth during which we become complete overcomers. But we are regarded as perfect at any stage of this growth, because of the cross.

Just two more:

Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902)& {7BC 908.15}.

.--Sanctification means habitual communion with God (RH March 15, 1906)& {7BC 908.16}.

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Zyph I am editing the references into your post & Linda has told me the time, time to suit up for Church so I will add more references later. Glad to help with references - any time I can let me know & I will do my best.

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Hope these edited in references help.
Ed

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Zyph I found those references for you, and in the process discovered a series of EGW articles in The Signs of the Times I had not seen before. I am operating from the concept that SOP is our spiritual geiger counter & template & spiritual language conversion web-engine. With the geiger counter of SOP we discover things we were not aware of. With the template of SOP we get a specific description of those things, inorder that we may comprehend their existance & beging to understand them enough to ask questions. The SOP engine of spiritual power to explain some of what the discovery means and how to begin to obtain it and put it to use.

Now with this preperation we go with prayer to the Scriptures asking God to direct & amplify our ability to study, comprenend , and teach us how to, through the Bible obtain and draw or pull upon the life of Jesus contained in these things to live through Him, just like He has lived through God the Father.

Zyph,

Good post. I don't see anything there which would place us at variance in our understanding of justification or sanctification.

I think you will find in your post the evidence that Judas was not converted, and by extrapolation, that Peter wasn't truly converted until Jesus crucifixcion. It was at the crucifixcion where Peter came to truly understand himself and his need of a Savior. That was where he came to rock bottom and had no place to look but up. When he got there he didn't reject what Jesus offered, but accepted it fully. His attitude changed from trusting himself, to distrust of himself and his own motivations to one of allowing Jesus to tell him the condition of his heart. This is the point of conversion.

The following comes from Signs of the Times November 11, 1897. The article is called Peter's fall. Here I think you will find the corroboration of what I have been saying.

quote:

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Peter needed a deeper, broader knowledge of Jesus Christ. He had listened to his words and enjoyed his lessons. He had acknowledged him to be the Son of God, and he believed him to be thus; but he had only touched the margin of faith in Christ. There were depths in the knowledge of his character which demanded his homage, his faith, his tribute of perfect trust and unshaken confidence. "Thou shalt see greater things than these," is the promise that invites increased expectation. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 1}

Jesus stood ready to reveal himself to Peter. In his great love he told him of his denial. He sought to reveal the defects of his character, and his need of the help which Christ alone could give. He told Peter that he was mistaken in his ideas of himself, and that in not receiving and believing the words of Christ, he was doing the very evil of which Christ had declared he would be guilty. How earnest, then, should have been Peter's prayers, that the Lord would teach him how to resist the wiles of the devil, how to be watchful against his temptations! But Peter's boastful assertions, while refusing to see himself as Christ viewed him, were causing his light to grow dim. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 2}

Jesus did not try farther to make Peter believe that he knew the course he would pursue; but he knew that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." "Simon, Simon," he said, "behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 3}

The object of conversion is twofold, personal and relative. It is to bless us, and to make us a blessing. This is an individual work; but those who profess to believe the Word of God have so long accustomed their minds to be content with little things that they have disqualified themselves to discern and appreciate the great things prepared for them. In the place of receiving into good and honest hearts the Word that God sends in messages to help them, to elevate, ennoble, and sanctify them, they cavil and gossip over it, because it cuts directly across their inclinations. In the place of seeing their need of conversion, they regard the means which the Lord has provided to change their characters as idle tales. To them their habits are stronger than truth. Individual conversion means a change of character. Man must place himself in personal relation to Christ, that, in the place of following his own hereditary and cultivated tendencies, he may have the mind of Christ, placing himself under the moulding influence of the Holy Spirit. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 4}

O, that Peter had better learned the lesson given in the fifteenth chapter of John, of the necessity of abiding in Christ! "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself," said Christ, "except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Peter was listening to his words as, pointing to a vine on which was a withered branch, he said: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth [pruneth] it, that it may bring forth more fruit. . . . As the branch can not bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. . . . If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 5}

Peter denied the Man of Sorrows in his acquaintance with grief, in the hour of his humiliation; but he was filled with shame and sorrow for his act. With blinding tears he made his way to the solitudes of the Garden of Gethsemane, and there prostrated himself where he had seen his Saviour's prostrate form. He remembered with remorse that he was asleep when Jesus prayed during those fearful hours. His proud heart broke, and penitential tears moistened the sod so recently stained with the bloody sweat-drops of God's dear Son. He left the garden a converted man. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 6}

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