You know very well that I am not defending sin. To state what you did directly implies that I defend cherishing sin. That is a lie, and you point out even one post of mine where I have done so. Not everything in life is "either" "or". If your conversion is so clear, and perfection is the test of conversion, why haven't you stopped sinning? Or are you not converted? You have said elsewhere that we are to work hard at ridding our lives of sin, then we can come to Christ. That is not and never has been true. If someone hasn't in an instant stopped all known sin, you make him a child of the devil. That's not what my bible tells me. And I wouldn't apply any passages taken out of their original context. If you must treat the SOP as the bible, then you must compare all statements which have a bearing, contextually, and not miss one in order to get the clear picture. That's the Protestant method of study.

With all due respect, this is a BIBLE study, which is open to non-Adventists, isn't it?

Hi Zyph,

quote:

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I'm sorry, but I don't think God gives the ability to heal people and cast out demons to the unconverted, yet Peter was one who did this prior to his "turning again".

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I think that there are some specific words from Jesus Himself that address this issue.

quote:

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Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

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Here Jesus says that there are some who will have cast out demons in His name, along with performing other miracles in His name, who He has never known (had a saving relationship with). We also have the experience of Judas to draw from. He was one of the 12 sent out that performed miracles and yet he was not converted either. He betrayed his Savior to death.

Two different situations.
Firstly, Judas WAS walking with Christ. He didn't leave Jesus' side until a long way down the track. This is from the chapter in "Desire of Ages" about Judas: "He recognized the teaching
of Christ as superior to all that he had ever heard. He loved the Great Teacher, and desired to be with Him. He felt a desire to be changed in
character and life, and he hoped to experience this through connecting himself with Jesus." So please don't tell me there wasn't the beginnings stirring within Judas. Love for Jesus is serious stuff.

Secondly, the text doesn't say "Depart from me, I never had a saving relationship with you." It says "I never KNEW you". Meaning that the people performing - or claiming to perform - these miracles had not met God. How, therefore, could it be God's power producing these miracles? It is a power from elsewhere which is responsible.

We are saved by JESUS' sacrifice on the cross. Perfection is a promise, not a condition of entry to heaven. And before I'm killed in the rush for quotes which say something else when taken out of context, let me say that no-one has addressed the issue of growth in the Christian life. While we grow, the implication is that we are not saved. And that's a lie which insults the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. And if perfection is the destination, has anyone crossed the line yet?

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

It is amazing what you sometimes find when searching. Probably fodder for new topics. But the information that a person is not saved until the seal of God is placed on them, is very specific. There must be a time when the dead in Christ are sealed, prior to the Second Coming, during the judgement of the dead. But it also provides information about the nature of salvation.
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Natural Traits Must Be Transformed.--"How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him. . . . {7BC 969.3}

The Lord has a work for us all to do. And if the truth is not rooted in the heart, if the natural traits of character are not transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can never be colaborers with Jesus Christ. Self will constantly appear, and the character of Christ will not be manifested in our lives (Letter 80, 1898). {7BC 969.4}

Without Spot or Wrinkle.--"Missionary agencies are greatly needed in every branch of God's work. Our institutions need converted, devoted men, who will make the Lord their dependence. God will reveal through such workers the power of His grace. His servants are to be distinguished from the world by the seal of the living God; their words and their works are to reveal that they are laborers together with God. {7BC 969.5}

God can use the human agent just to the extent that he will be worked by the Holy Spirit. To men who accept positions of responsibility as presidents, ministers, physicians, or workers in any line, I am bidden to say: God will test every man who enters His service. He does not ask, Do they possess learning and eloquence? Have they ability to command and control and manage? He asks, Will they represent My character? Will they walk in humility, that I may teach them My way? The soul temple must not be defiled by any loose or unclean practice. Those whom I will acknowledge in the courts of heaven must be without spot and wrinkle. {7BC 969.6}

The Lord will use humble men to do a great and good work. Through them He will represent to the world the ineffaceable characteristics of the divine nature (Letter 270, 1907). {7BC 969.7}

(Chs. 14:1-3; 22:4; John 1:12.) An Honor to Bear God's Sign.-- "Those who come out from the world, to stand distinct from worldlings in words and works, those who realize that it is an honor to bear God's sign, will receive power to become His sons. The Lord will have men who can be depended on. No one will enter the courts above who does not bear the sign of God. Those who in this sin-cursed earth bear this sign in holy boldness, looking upon it as an honor, will be recognized and honored by Christ in the courts above (Letter 125, 1903). {7BC 969.8}

(Jer. 8:20; 1 John 3:3.) Will the Angel Pass Us By?--"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." In a little while every one who is a child of God will have His seal placed upon him. O that it may be placed upon our foreheads! Who can endure the thought of being passed by when the angel goes forth to seal the servants of God in their foreheads (RH May 28, 1889)? {7BC 969.9}

Passport to the Holy City.--"Only those who receive the seal of the living God will have the passport through the gates of the Holy City. But there are many who take upon themselves responsibilities in connection with the work of God who are not wholehearted believers, and while they remain thus cannot receive the seal of the living God. They trust in their own righteousness, which the Lord accounts as foolishness (Letter 164, 1909). {7BC 970.1}

The Mark of Distinction.--"Those who would have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. This is what distinguishes them from the disloyal, who have accepted a man-made institution in the place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is the mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (MS 27, 1899). {7BC 970.2}

Like Christ in Character.--"The seal of the living God will be placed upon those only who bear a likeness to Christ in character (RH May 21, 1895). {7BC 970.3}

Image of Christ on the Soul.--"As wax takes the impression of the seal, so the soul is to take the impression of the Spirit of God and retain the image of Christ (ST July 18, 1911). {7BC 970.4}

The Seal and the Commandments.--"Many will not receive the seal of God because they do not keep His commandments or bear the fruits of righteousness (Letter 76, 1900). {7BC 970.5}

Bitter Disappointment in the Day of God.--"The great mass of professing Christians will meet with bitter disappointment in the day of God. They have not upon their foreheads the seal of the living God. Lukewarm and halfhearted, they dishonor God far more than the avowed unbeliever. They grope in darkness, when they might be walking in the noonday light of the Word, under the guidance of One who never errs (Letter 121, 1903). {7BC 970.6}

2-4. See EGW on ch. 14:1-4. {7BC 970.7}
4-17 (ch. 14:1-4; 2 Cor. 3:18). Strive to Be Among the 144,000.-- [Rev. 7:9-17 quoted.] "Those whom the Lamb shall lead by the fountains of living waters, and from whose eyes He shall wipe away all tears, will be those now receiving the knowledge and understanding revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. . . . {7BC 970.8}

"We are to copy no human being. There is no human being wise enough to be our criterion. We are to look to the man Christ Jesus, who is complete in the perfection of righteousness and holiness. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the pattern man. His experience is the measure of the experience that we are to gain. His character is our model. Let us, then, take our minds off the perplexities and the difficulties of this life, and fix them on Him, that by beholding we may be changed into His likeness. We may behold Christ to good purpose. We may safely look to Him; for He is all-wise. As we look to Him and think of Him, He will be formed within, the hope of glory. {7BC 970.9}

Zyph, okay I deserved that last post. I'm sorry for assuming you are defending a life of known sin. And I think you also know that I am not advocating that a person must first eliminate sin from their life without the help of Jesus before coming to Him for salvation.

But it is true that if we refuse to advance at God's pace for us and choose to hang on to known sin then we are not saved at that point and neither are we converted. We do not experience the miracle of rebirth until after God has brought us to the point of giving up all of our defects of character. Then the Holy Spirit resides within us seated upon the throne of our soul temple empowering us to use our faculties of mind and body to imitate the sinless example of Jesus maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

This is not to say we cannot choose to step outside this relationship and sin, even after we've under gone the miracle of rebirth. But these post conversion intentional or unintentional slips do not prove that we were never really converted.

Zyph,

Now let's look at that entire quote. It says something far different than what you are making it out to say.

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Judas had naturally a strong love for money; but he had not always been corrupt enough to do such a deed as this. He had fostered the evil spirit of avarice until it had become the ruling motive of his life. The love of mammon overbalanced his love for Christ. Through becoming the slave of one vice he gave himself to Satan, to be driven to any lengths in sin.

Judas had joined the disciples when multitudes were following Christ. The Saviour's teaching moved their hearts as they hung entranced upon His words, spoken in the synagogue, by the seaside, upon the mount.

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Judas saw the sick, the lame, the blind, flock to Jesus from the towns and cities. He saw the dying laid at His feet. He witnessed the Saviour's mighty works in healing the sick, casting out devils, and raising the dead. He felt in his own person the evidence of Christ's power. He recognized the teaching of Christ as superior to all that he had ever heard. He loved the Great Teacher, and desired to be with Him. He felt a desire to be changed in character and life, and he hoped to experience this through connecting himself with Jesus. The Saviour did not repulse Judas. He gave him a place among the twelve. He trusted him to do the work of an evangelist. He endowed him with power to heal the sick and to cast out devils. But Judas did not come to the point of surrendering himself fully to Christ. He did not give up his worldly ambition or his love of money. While he accepted the position of a minister of Christ, he did not bring himself under the divine molding. He felt that he could retain his own judgment and opinions, and he cultivated a disposition to criticize and accuse.

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Ellen White makes it clear here that Judas did not surrender himself to Jesus, but that Jesus gave Judas the power anyway. Judas, while having the power to perform miracles, was in actuality forming the character that caused him to betray Jesus. This is far different than what you said.

We have Jesus own words to confirm this too. He knew Judas was a devil while still giving Judas the power to work miracles.

quote:

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John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

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We have further evidence of the heart of Judas too. The following quote comes from the chapter "The Feast at Simon's House." Here Ellen White lays bare Judas' character and motivations that had existed for a long time in him. The quote starts at that place in the story where Mary's gift to Jesus had been discovered.

quote:

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She had sought to avoid observation, and her movements might have passed unnoticed, but the ointment filled the room with its fragrance, and published her act to all present. Judas looked upon this act with great displeasure. Instead of waiting to hear what Christ would say of the matter, he began to whisper his complaints to those near him, throwing reproach upon Christ for suffering such waste. Craftily he made suggestions that would be likely to cause disaffection.

Judas was treasurer for the disciples, and from their little store he had secretly drawn for his own use, thus narrowing down their resources to a meager pittance. He was eager to put into the bag all that he could obtain. The treasure in the bag was often drawn upon to relieve the poor; and when something that Judas did not think essential was bought, he would say, Why is this waste? why was not the cost of this put into the bag that I carry for the poor? Now the act of Mary was in such marked contrast to his selfishness that he was put to shame; and according to his custom, he sought to assign a worthy motive for his objection to her gift. Turning to the disciples, he asked, "Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." Judas had no heart for the poor. Had Mary's ointment been sold, and the proceeds fallen into his possession, the poor would have received no benefit.

Judas had a high opinion of his own executive ability. As a financier he thought himself greatly superior to his fellow disciples, and he had led them to regard him in the same light. He had gained their confidence, and had a strong influence over them. His professed sympathy for the poor deceived them, and his artful insinuation caused them to look

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distrustfully upon Mary's devotion. The murmur passed round the table, "To what purpose is this waste? For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor."

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Jesus well knew that Judas hadn't surrendered his heart, but was willing to work with him anyway, to give him every possible chance to be converted. This just shows the lengths that God will go in His attempts to save us. He will even give those who haven't given Him their all the ability to work for Him and trust them with gifts that they will turn into curses and their own destruction. You might say, Jesus gives us all enough rope to hang ourselves. The choice is up to us what to do with it. We can either use that rope to bind us to Him tightly, or we can use it to cause our own destruction.

Zyph wrote:

quote:

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We are saved by JESUS' sacrifice on the cross. Perfection is a promise, not a condition of entry to heaven. And before I'm killed in the rush for quotes which say something else when taken out of context, let me say that no-one has addressed the issue of growth in the Christian life. While we grow, the implication is that we are not saved. And that's a lie which insults the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. And if perfection is the destination, has anyone crossed the line yet?

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Amen. The blood of Jesus is our only ticket to heaven. And if an unconverted person were to die before they experienced the product of conversion (rebirth) their eternal destiny would be decided by God according to His loving fairness.

But whether or not we are "saved" "while we grow" is matter that belongs to God. We can safely assume that if an unconverted person (someone who hasn't given up all their defects of character for Jesus) is willfully clinging to their pet sin, unwilling to give it up because they enjoy it too much, we can assume, at least theoretically, that that person is not saved.

To be saved means to be free from known sin. To suggest that we can be saved while intentionally clinging to known sin is confusing. A person who is still in the process of being drawn by God to give up their defects of character, but haven't completed the process, are saved if they are living up to the light God has thus far revealed to them. But no one can be considered saved if they willfully cling to a sin that God has already clearly pointed out to them.

Once God reveals a certain defect of character He supplies the power to live without it. We need not cling to or excuse any known defect of character. If God has pointed it out He obviously feels we are ready to give it up, and He wouldn't have pointed it out if He was unable to empower us to live without it.

But to say that we are saved even though we are still slave to a defect of character God has already pointed out ignores the meaning of the word saved. Mat 1:21 says Jesus came to save us from our sin, but if we are still victim of it then we are not saved from it.

No, we are not saved because we give up sin. That's crazy talk. The truth is we are able to live without sin because we have been saved from it. To say that being saved and living without sin are two separate things misses the whole point. True, we must not reverse the order of the process. We are first saved and then we are able to live without the sins God has revealed. But being saved doesn't happen independent of living without sin.

People who sin after they have completed the process of conversion and have actually already been born again and have already received the sinless mind of the new man - if after all of this they slip into sin, Jesus offers them the gift of repentance, which ultimately restores the relationship their sin severed. Yes, sin separates the soul from God. But repentance restores it.

In light of all the quotes that have been shared throughout this thread I don't see how anyone can disagree with the contents of this post.

Well, Mike, it must be one of those strange things, but I DO disagree with you.

You wrote: "To be saved means to be free from known sin." That's just not borne out by all the bible stories. You can grab a million quotes out of context, but that's not systematic bible study. My bible tells me to be saved is to have accepted the blood of Jesus Christ as an atonement for my sin - past, present, wilful or otherwise. The rest of the package comes as a natural growth in the Christian life. And it's not conditional. It can't come unless I have first been justified. But it's a process that differs for everyone. The common thing you'll find in all the people trusting in the Lord, is their talk of His love, and encouragement for others.

A man has to be borne again in order to overcome. Most of us don't get it right the first time. We require a learning process. Do you abandon children because they aren't little adults? Neither does God abandon those who haven't learned how to depend on Him for overcoming. And they are regarded as perfect because of the cross. For no other reason.

You may wish to give hope and encouragement to others, but you turn this topic into a rod for the backs of those who haven't grown to the point in their relationship and understanding of God, but who nevertheless love Him, and have responded to the Holy Spirit. You tell them they haven't been converted, when they're pretty sure they have been. And their lives give evidence of that.

It isn't possible to grow a plant overnight, and the first shoots of a plant don't look much like the end product. But it's a plant.

Zeph,
I agree. The thief on the cross didn't get the chance to "grow" while here on earth after his conversion. But, if he HAD, it's for sure, that if he had kept on growing in Jesus, a few years or so down the road, one would not have recognized him. And, I began my walk with the Lord years ago, with even some "detours" on the way. And, now I can say: "I am not yet where I want to be, but praise God, I'm not where I used to be!"

Zyph, I really can't believe that we are so different. I know you believe in the power of God that enables us to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan. And that's exactly what I believe. And I do not believe that God abandons us if we fall short. And I believe God immediately offers us the gift of repentance which totally restores us to righteousness.

I have tried desperately and repeatedly to pin point a distinct class of people and have tried very hard not to generalize. I truly believe that it was Jesus' mission to come and save us from our sin (Mat 1:21) and to destroy the works of the Devil (1 John 3). And people who refuse this gift and insist on committing their pet sin - I just cannot believe that they are saved from sin. The evidence suggests otherwise.

Since the power to overcome is available and since they are refusing that power because they prefer to indulge their favorite defects of character instead of cooperating with the love of God to live without that particular sin - then I cannot believe that they are in a saved relationship. That defies the meaning of the word saved, at least as I understand the word.

I don't get it? Are you actually saying a person is "saved" even if they are wilfully cherishing and committing a known sin without any plans to repent and ask God for power to overcome? If a person can be like that, then in what way do they differ from unsaved people?