In my thinking Peter was converted before and was converted after the crucifixtion. I believe that he went through the pruning that the Father had promised. I believe that he had more conversions to go through after as well. Since we do not believe that once converted always converted, until the sealing. But again to try too hard to describe all the aspects of conversion is an interesting but not necesarily a productive task. Our job is to get as close to Jesus as possible. When He brings up our defects and tells us what we will do our job is to cry out for help for He will keep His sheep, we can not keep ourselves for Him. So when we study, and the Spirit brings up things our job is to take our dilemma to Him for Him to make the changes in us. As long as we have a Jesus centered focus then all things will work out well. If we have an us centered focus then all things will work out not well.

Ellen White has described conversion as a "radical transformation." The many quotes I have posted throughout this and other threads make it clear that she viewed conversion (rebirth) as a when-then change of life. No one is considerd converted if in reality their life if full of unknown moral defects of character. Not until God is able to draw us to the point where we are able to deal with a knowledge of our unknown imperfections, not until then are we in a position where God can empower us to acknowledge and overcome our defects. And God is the one who decides how and when we're able to successfully deal with a knowledge of what's right and wrong about our life.

But not until we are led by the loving and compassionate hand of God to a place where we candidly see our imperfections completely exposed - not until at that point are we in a position where we can surrender and submit ourselves totally to God and experience the miracle of conversion. We are converted when we choose to live for Jesus without clinging to our now exposed defects and God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man.

Please read Gal 5:16-24 (I'm away from home so I can't post it here right now) and identify which one of the imperfections Paul lists that we can be guilty of without realizing it and still be considred born again (converted). Personally I cannot believe that anyone can be ignorantly guilty of the defects Paul listed and be converted. Can you?

Yes, I can.

Hi Greg,

What do you see as the difference between the drawing of the Holy Spirit, which includes the revelation of our sins because it convicts us of our need of a Savior, and conversion?

Do you feel that any positive response generated by the calling of the Holy Spirit is conversion?

Here's the quote from Galatians 5:

5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Again, as I said before, I just can't imagine anyone (who has experienced the awesome miracle of conversion) unwittingly practicing any one of these sins without realizing it's wrong. Especially when compared with other passages of Scripture and the SOP.

The quote above very simply says that so long as we are walking in the Spirit we will not fall victim to any of the imperfections listed, which is a comprehensive list since he ends it by adding - "and such like." Rather than being discouraging bad news, this is encouraging good news. And it goes right along with what John wrote in 1 John:

3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Greg, would you mind elaborating on your last post?

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

I think that Peter was converted before Calvary. I do not think that he understood the depths of self that he was working with. I believe that he fulfilled the conditions of the parable of the sower. The plant was sown in his heart, it was growing, and Jesus was protecting it from the ravages of the weeds that were trying to choke his spiritual life out. In addition to his lack of awareness of self he was still highly prejudiced against Gentiles and would have happily excluded them from salvation. When he was "converted" after Calvary he still had sin in his life, the prejudice, but he was still converted. I believe that his conversion came when he accepted Jesus as Messiah and chose to follow him. All the rest was maturation and development. The change of character came when he made his decision to follow Jesus. He still had growth to go through.

Case study number 2. When king Saul was given a new heart was it conversion? When he chose to rebel against God through Samuel was it unconversion?

Case study number 3. When David chose to participate in adultery what state was David in? Before he participated in adultery was he converted? After he had committed adultery and murder was he converted or unconverted? When was he a man after God's own heart?

Peter's Conversion - If being converted means being unwittingly guilty of moral imperfections then how should we understand 1 Peter 2:1,2? Here Peter plainly says that new born babes in Christ have laid aside all moral defects of character.

King Saul's Conversion - It is evident from the Bible record that he was converted but chose to turn his back on God. His experience coincides with Heb 6:4-6.

King David's Conversion - Clearly he slipped in and out of the mind of the new man. But he always repented and was restored to the relationship his sin severed. His experience would have followed Heb 10:26,27 if he had not repented.

According to 1 John 3:9 converted people who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man do and cannot commit a known sin. This is not to say that they are incapable of sinning, but rather that they do not choose to sin while in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

But if a converted person does fall into sin God promises us in 1 John 2:1,2 that Jesus stands ready to represent us, and in 1 John 1:9 He promises to cleanse us of all unrighteousness and to restore the relationship our sin severed. However, if we refuse to repent then we are in an unsaved state. Isn't that how you see it?

Here are the quotes cited above:

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1 John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Mike:
I believe that you try too hard to make everything line up. You appear to have the idea that you can explain all the details of salvation. The concept is easier lived than explained in detail. It is somewhat like trying to explain the incarnation. We can try but it can not be done.

Conversion is the new birth. As a result of this miracle there is a new creation in us while at the same time being surrounded by a sinful being, the "old man". Each day that new creation is to partake of the Word of God. Each day it grows bigger and stronger, yet all the while being a holy being. This new creation is exposed to all the ravages of life. It makes mistakes and sometimes falls. Yet it keeps getting up and continuing the journey. Sister White describes it as "one unbroken string of victories, not seen as such here but seen as such in heaven." This conveys the idea that our human vision still sees things darkly, and cannot be totally understood until we receive our improved vision.

Some day when God is finished we will be perfectly mature. Then we will be sealed and will never fall again into sin. Then we will be "perfect".

Gregg,

The quote you gave is a good one. (The one about uninterrupted victories.)

I went to the Desire of Ages and pulled it out of there to get its context.

quote:

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Christ rejoiced that He could do more for His followers than they could ask or think. He spoke with assurance, knowing that an almighty decree had been given before the world was made. He knew that truth, armed with the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, would conquer in the contest with evil; and that the bloodstained banner would wave triumphantly over His followers. He knew that the life of His trusting disciples would be like His, a series of uninterrupted victories, not seen to be such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter.

"These things I have spoken unto you," He said, "that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Christ did not fail, neither was He discouraged, and His followers are to manifest a faith of the same enduring nature. They are to live as He lived, and work as He worked, because they depend on Him as the great Master Worker. Courage, energy, and perseverance they must possess. Though apparent impossibilities obstruct their way, by His grace they are to go forward. Instead of deploring difficulties, they are called upon to surmount them. They are to despair of nothing, and to hope for everything. With the golden chain of His matchless love Christ has bound them to the throne of God. It is His purpose that the highest influence in the universe, emanating from the source of all power, shall be theirs. They are to have power

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to resist evil, power that neither earth, nor death, nor hell can master, power that will enable them to overcome as Christ overcame.

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I would have to say that this quote in context has a different meaning than what you seem to imply with your post.

Jesus life here on earth was seen as one of defeat by His contemoraries, but, only because they were looking at temporal circumstances, not spiritual struggles. I fail to see how we can look at Jesus' life in the context of this quote and your interpretation of it and see how Jesus life had any failures related to spiritual matters. Ellen White clearly tied this to Jesus joy at being able to giving us the power to overcome any obstacle, even evil.

YOu kind of took this promise and made it theoretical and of none effect by saying we couldn't really take it for just what it says. You seem to say that our spiritual failures become victories by some slight of hand.

Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate your posts. I always read them with great interest for I think you have a lot of insight. I just think we have been conditioned to accept sin in our lives far too easily. We completely expect to fail. We are taught anymore that to sin is just expected. It is kind of like, Well, hey you are just going to keep on failing. Get used to it.

I don't see that attitude taught in the Bible. John the beloved, who certainly understood the value of his relationship with Jesus wrote: These things I write unto that ye sin not, but, if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous.

I don't see how anyone can take these texts and come away with the idea that sin is just something that is inevitable. I don't think that you even realize what it is that you are saying when you disagree with Mike in his analysis. But, the underlying message is that sin cannot be overcome. We are going to sin. That is the sum effect of what you are saying.

I see Paul, Jesus, John, James, Matthew, Mark, and Luke as well as David, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others not giving that same message. They do paint that picture of mankind without God, but they do not paint that picture of mankind with God. They paint a picture of a struggle with sin, and an overcoming of sin. Nowhere do I see them teach, in the overall, any kind of acceptance of sin in the life of a beleiver. Sin is always condemned.

I am sorry that I have given the impression that we can not overcome sin. I am also sorry that I have given the impression sin cannot be dealt with in Jesus. I am also sorry that I have given the impression that by sleight of hand we can claim that Jesus' righteousness covers intentional sin. I do not intend to convey that idea.

I do claim that the DA quotation is still appropriate to your discussion. The power that Jesus manifested over physical issues is to be manifested in our lives. The victories that Jesus displayed are to be the ones that we are to have in our lives. The program of salvation that Jesus initiated is to grant us total victory over sin, here in this life.

My difference of opinion is in the procedure. I do not believe that we can have victory over sin by focusing on sin. I do not believe that we can have victory over sin by trying harder to overcome. It is my understanding of the Bible and the SOP that when you come to Jesus, when you maintain the connection to Him, and when you cooperate in His strength then sin falls away because it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the overcoming by our permission.

I hope that this clarifies my thoughts.